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[Rubicon] New certifcates review

First post
Author
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#101 - 2013-10-09 13:17:33 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also i shouldn't require the ewar drone skill at a high level for frigates!









Even though for some bizare reason its highly useful bonus works on all drones...


The E-war drone skill increases control range of all drones, and thus is an important skill for any kind of frigate focusing on them.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-10-09 13:32:59 UTC
In my opinion you should add a completely different menu for rigs, as "Energy Weapon Rigging Level V" doesn't really contribute to Large Energy Turrets, it benefits the fitting setup and reduces the draw back on the rigs.

Also e.g on a guardian for "Remote Armor Repairer V" you need Armor Rigging V, i think that's kinda silly since you'd never really use remote repaire augmentors on a guardian.
Nor would you ever have Drone rigs on one, so having Drones Rigging V in there seems kinda silly, however i would totally agree with adding a seperate menu called "Rigging Skills" or similar.

As for Targeting, i think you guys should split it into races (i'm using SISI info), because it seems wrong to me to tell a new player to Gravimetric, Ladar, and Magnetometric Sensor Compensation skills to fly a guardian, since it's an Amarr hull it should only list Radar.

I really love that you guys are redoing the system, but if you want to use this "mastery" thing please do it ship specific, and not just an overall draft.
It kinda ruins the purpose of trying to unlock these "masteries" if half of it doesn't have any relevance if i only fly Amarr/Gallente, i wouldn't need to train Caldari/Minmatar.

I get the entire thing with that it's heavily specialized, but you shouldn't show it on ships, if half of it doesn't have relevance to the actual ship.

Just like "Navigation V" Requires Micro Jump Drive Operation V on a cruiser. :P

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.comĀ 

Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-10-09 15:03:07 UTC
One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.

Lina Theist
Running out of Space
EDGE Alliance
#104 - 2013-10-09 15:27:10 UTC
I think the mastery needs looking at. Why would freighters need rigging skills or microwarp drive skills? Do I as a nighthawk pilot really need lvl 5 in armor/skirmish warfare for lvl1? Why would I train ladar compensation skill when I fly gallente? Why do I need skills to lock 12 enemies in a dreadnought? Perhaps these certificates are not customized to every ship?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#105 - 2013-10-09 16:12:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Now we have those rare cases that are open to discussion and this is my opinion:

RIGS in certificates:

Looking at the targeting we see it only demand electronic rigs at level I starting at level III, then at IV demands rigs at level IV and V of course level V, I want to propose a middle ground that makes much more sense: Master Targetting IV should only request electronic rig at III because it makes more sense I ... III ... V than I ... IV ... V ----- the same rule should apply to all other certificated that demand rigs.

Warfare Links in Certificates:

Any ship not a command ship should only request basic warfare links from mastery 4 or 5 and only demand at 4 warfare links with specialist at level I, and V with specialist at level II


Armor resistance phasing in the armor tanking certificate

the same as I described in the rigs, It should not go from 1 to 4 to 5 but starting at mastery 3, but from 1 to 3 to 5, it makes more sense.


Usually, level4 certificates allows the user to use tech2 items. And you need rig skill level at 4 to be able to tech2 rigs. Yes, we do realize tech2 rigs may not be super common but we wanted to keep a consistent system going there.


that's a bit odd as T2 is meant to be specialist ships/modules so surely all T2 things in the game should require lv5 skills should it not?????

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#106 - 2013-10-10 01:38:26 UTC
Lina Theist wrote:
Do I as a nighthawk pilot really need lvl 5 in armor/skirmish warfare for lvl1?

Warfare Skills at 5 is in the pre-reqs for a Command Ship, so yes you need them.
They are the base Leadership skills, not the ones that improve the specific links(which some people seem to think they are).

Armored Warfare - 2% more Armor HP per level
Seige Warfare - 2% more Shield HP per level
Skirmish Warfare - 2% more Agility per level
Information Warfare - 2% more targeting range per level

Who wouldn't want 10% more Armor HP, Shield HP, Agility and Targeting range for their squad?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2013-10-10 03:11:12 UTC
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:
One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.

racial drones have different damage types.

I'm a Caldari close to RP'er and I trained drones, currently working on gunneries... so your assumption that weapon or damage type is tied to race is somewhat close-minded. and racist

then again, Caldari are more permissive about bending the rules for the sake of one's achievement.
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#108 - 2013-10-10 15:20:36 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:


Also, anything about alliance build certificates? the system allows it? will that ever happen?


We agree that this would be an amazing feature, unlikely however that it'll make it for Rubicon. It's definitely something on our radar though and something the whole team is pushing for.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#109 - 2013-10-10 15:25:24 UTC
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:
One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.


Nobody is requiring you to do anything.
grrlet
Leper Outcast Unclean
#110 - 2013-10-11 04:10:38 UTC
Not exactly sure this is the place for it, but its certificate related

Why on earth, do the shuttles require you to train Micro Jump Drive Operation, and Astronautics Rigging to achieve rank IV??
And Amarr ships require you to train the sensor strength upgrades for other races to get a higher rank??

It is soooo confusing & misleading. If they're going to be linked to the ships using these ranks, then it should be tailored for the ships. Otherwise leave it ambiguous like it was before. "this group helps this ship". Not "YOU WILL BE RANK IV!!! (granted, were making you train things that have nothing to do with this ship).
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#111 - 2013-10-11 04:37:54 UTC
Every ship in the game currently require those. Freighters require afterburners and MWD. There's a number of silly things in there now. That's why it's on SiSi this early, I bet. P
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-10-11 14:10:29 UTC
Might I suggest that some of the certificates be separated into passive bonuses and active bonuses where appropriate -- in this case navigation.

How about Navigation and Propulsion certificates. Navigation covers all passive skills and Propulsion covers all prop mods. You still have the question about things like fuel conservation and Micro Jump Drive.

Part of the problem is that, ironically, there are too few skills per thing you're trying to max out. Jump Drives have one or two skills and only relevant to the few ships that can equip jump drives.

Perhaps we should break down the different forms of propulsion mods into their own certificates.

Simple Navigation
AB + MWD Navigation
MJD Navigation
Jump Drive Navigation

You would basically be taking the drones approach to Navigation certificates. This could also work.
Helothane
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#113 - 2013-10-11 14:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Helothane
I understand why you might want to have Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades under Core Ship Operation - the vast majority of the ships use weapons. Some ships that you wouldn't normally think to arm, like Logistics, even have turret slots. However, I don't see needing WU and AWU as required to master a ship that does not normally benefit from those skills when used as intended. WU and AWU do nothing for fitting remote reppers, tractor beams, strip miners and the like.

Perhaps move WU and AWU to the turret and missile certificates?

Edit: Found some other... interesting things.

Capital Remote Shield Booster and Captial Remote Armor Repairer both require Spaceship Command 3. I would argue they need 5, as that is needed to train Advanced Spaceship Command, and you need that at 5 to train Capital Ships, which is what you really need to have trained in order to use a capital module. Ahem.

Astronautic Rigging for Capital Navigation? Other than Rorquals and the oddball "fit for speed and maneuverability" carriers that you sometimes see on the victim side of killmails, I honestly don't see the need for this.

Manufacturing:

Battleship Construction does nothing past level 4. Zip. Nada. In fact, level 4 of that skill is the only level needed to do anything with it, as both marauders and blackops require that skill to build the hulls. So requiring it for level 5 of the cert is simply a waste of time.

No Industrial Construction at all? Odd. Oh by the way, beyond level 3 for that skill does nada/zip/zilch as well.

Outpost Construction is needed from level 3 and on, at the matching level. Seriously? Most of what that skill allow you to do is simply attach something that can only be obtained from NPCs to an existing outpost. 99.9% of industrialists have no use for that skill at all.

Capital Ship Construction not listed at all. Now this skill is useful to industrialists, as they use it to make capital ship parts, fighters, fighter bombers, freighters and the like.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-10-11 16:05:18 UTC
I still don't feel that taking any rigging skills to level 5 should be required to get to mastery level on the certs it just seems beyond overkill.

Also, have you considered creating 4 groups for the targeting cert, one for each compensation group, rather than lump all sensor compensation skills into one?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Monetta Hark
Hark Nominees Besloten Vennootschap
#115 - 2013-10-11 16:06:15 UTC
The "Target Painting" certificate at level 3 and above requires the "Electronic Superiority Rigging" skill, but there are no rigs which affect target painters
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#116 - 2013-10-11 17:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Update:


  • All rigs skills have been removed from Certificates / Masteries as they were more cluttering them than anything else.

  • Advanced Target Management has been removed from the "Target Management" Certificate and moved into its own Certificate, named "Advanced Target Management". Carriers, Marauders, Logistic Cruisers and Combat Recon ships need this Certificate as part of their Masteries since they can lock more than 7 targets. All other ships in-game don't need it anymore.

  • The "Target Management" Certificate has been split in 4, one version for each race variant. Each version has a different "Sensor Compensation" skill not to make players train irrelevant Sensor Compensation skills on specific hulls (ex: to avoid the user to train Gravimetric skill on an Amarr ship).

  • Warfare Link Certificate has been moved from Mastery level 1 to 5 for Battlecruisers, Carriers, Supercarriers, Titans and the Orca. Moved from level 1 to 3 for the Rorqual. We acknowledge Warfare Links are not critical when flying those hulls at the first Mastery levels. However, Warfare Links are still required at level 1 Mastery for Command Ships.

  • Salvaging Certificate has been removed from Marauders.

  • Salvaging has been moved from Mastery level 1 to 5 for all Tech1 exploration frigates (Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe). Salvaging is part of the ship bonuses but not that important at low Mastery levels.

  • Jump Drive Calibration skill slipped our grasp and has been added to the Capital Navigation Certificate. It's required at level 4 for Master level4, and 5 for Mastery level 5.

  • Navigation Certificate has been split in two: one with the Micro Jump Drive Operation skill (assigned to all battleship variations) and another one without, assigned to all the other ships (except Jump Drive capable ships, like capitals).

  • Black Ops and Jump Freighters now have the Capital Navigation Certificate. Black Ops both require Battleship Navigation and Capital Navigation since they are capable to fit both sub-capital propulsion modules (AB, MWD, MJD) and have a Jump Drive.


Those changes will most likely be visible on Singularity around the middle of next week.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2013-10-11 19:36:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:

[list]
  • All rigs skills have been removed from Certificates / Masteries as they were more cluttering them than anything else.



  • thank... yes
    Mioelnir
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #118 - 2013-10-11 20:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Warfare Link Certificate has been moved from Mastery level 1 to 5 for Battlecruisers, Carriers, Supercarriers, Titans, Ore Industrial Ship. Moved from level 1 to 3 for the Ore Capital Industrial Ship. We acknowledge Warfare Links are not critical when flying those hulls at the first Mastery levels. However, Warfare Links are still required at level 1 Mastery for Command Ships.
  • Since the Rorqual is the ship with the most powerful mining boni in the game, I expected it to require mining links earlier than at 5. While it is frequently used for POS combat placements and other creative uses, the two primary roles are in my mind:

    1. Bonus ship
    2. Ore compressor

    At a mastery of 3, which I see as a still unpolished but fundamentally complete day to day skillset you are not made fun of for; I would expect the pilot to be able to slap some t1 mining links on there. Full t2 with mindlink at 4, as a solid polished skillset and 5 for clone vat bay and such things.

    [Edit] Oh my, I misread Orca and Rorqual. But I think the Orca should have the links at 3 for analogue reasons to what I just typed about the Rorqual.

    [Edit Again]
    Actually, Ore Industrial Ship is the Noctis. Ore Industrial Command Ship would be the Orca. Why would the Noctis require the Link mastery at any level? Is that a typo?
    Katherine Raven
    ALTA Industries
    Intergalactic Conservation Movement
    #119 - 2013-10-11 20:51:23 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    stuff



    Awesome, I think that pretty much covered everything I didn't like. I'll try to pick through it with a fine toothed comb and see if I can dig up any other suggestions.
    Minerus Maximus
    #120 - 2013-10-11 21:40:03 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update:

    You did not say anything about ships without slots (like shuttle and freighter).
    Whether they will have skills Afterburner, Fuel Conservation, Acceleration Control and High Speed Maneuvering in Navigation certs of Mastery levels?
    These skills are useless for these ships.