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Tornado vs. Talos rough comparison and feedback.
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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#1 - 2011-11-04 15:42:54 UTC
Okay, I tried now both ships and my skills at autocannons and blasters are maxed out.

Tornado basic fitting:

8x 800 Autocannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x LSE ll, Azetrophic EM ward, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, TE ll, 2x Gyrostab ll,

46km Falloff with EMP Ammunition, 70km with Barrage, Speed 1661m/s


Talos basic fitting:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x Web ll, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, Adaptive plating ll, 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate, 2x Mag. Field Stab ll

4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff with Antimatter, with Null I got 11,25km optimal and 15,625km falloff

I think it shows what is really wrong with both ships, when presented with a choice I would choose the Tornado in practically any situation. The only situation where the Talos may have small chance to shine is, when it lands practically on top an enemy and can immediatly tackle them, with webbers and then blast them. In almost any other situation the Talos will be kited to death.

Since I can fly both I see no point in the Talos and will fly a Tornado instead (pocket-Machariel)

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-11-04 15:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
pretty sad. i hope devs start seeing the real issues here. buffing tracking on an otherwise ******** weapons system is futile. autocannons and HML's btw, are wrecking this game.

why dont you do a rails comparison too just for ***** and giggles?
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#3 - 2011-11-04 15:59:19 UTC
I could, but the Talos has a bit of a CPU problem, especially with some tackling mods in the medslots.

Also the Naga will probably take over the role of the Rail platform and from the looks of it, maybe even the role of a blaster platform from the Talos.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#4 - 2011-11-04 16:17:39 UTC
Pretty much all that tells me is that autocannons can hit further out than blasters.

Who knew?

C.
Nathal Kryos
Emotional Support Piranhas
#5 - 2011-11-04 16:20:11 UTC
Tank stats anyone?
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#6 - 2011-11-04 16:28:37 UTC
It is about how useful the ships are, since both ships fill the same role. Also the 800mm Autocannon has maybe 10% less DPS but a huge advantage in every other area.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#7 - 2011-11-05 13:57:07 UTC
Hey but maybe they made Talos especially for Jita Protests ? !! 4,5 km will be OK for that :) huh ?
sekan killspesn
What The French
#8 - 2011-11-16 00:43:14 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
It is about how useful the ships are, since both ships fill the same role. Also the 800mm Autocannon has maybe 10% less DPS but a huge advantage in every other area.
same role ? huh? how?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-16 01:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alticus C Bear
Is it me or are you comparing very different fits.

How about this, requires 1% CPU implant, it is now faster, with more DPS but a little less EHP.

Don't think these numbers include the additional 5% Blasters may be getting.

Void 1033 at 7.88km+8.1km
Null 738DPS at 13km+20km
29,864EHP
1755m/s
I think has more DPS than the Tornado wihtin 12km and can almost match out to 20km

[Talos, Shield Talos]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

This is the armour fit I intend to use, it is slower and stuck with the usual blaster problems but up close it is quite good.

Void 765dps
40,089 EHP
1308m/s

A single heavy stasis web drone drops the speed of the Tornado listed to 1329m/s. An Armour Tornado would drop to around 1000m/s.

[Talos, Armor Talos]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Tracking Enhancer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#10 - 2011-11-16 04:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-16 04:25:48 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.


+1 to this, though i must admit that Gallante ships need NEED an ehp buff and more web bonuses, not to mention fixing the stacking penalty on web drones, to make them able to stay alive long enough in some cases to get in and apply that damn dps...


But the fact is the TALOS and TORNADo are not the same type of ship... Talos is meant for on top of your ass **** you insanely.. though even then i think blasters atleast need a bit more of a damage buff due to the limited damage type... maybe 5% more...

Give the ships a tad bit more ehp, and a small buff on blasters more and the ships will be serious contenders.....

OR FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST AND ALL THAT IS HOLEY GIVE THE DAMN TALOS ITS WEB BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even if its only a range bonus
Antal Marius
Allied Operations
Mechanicus Macabre Immortale
#12 - 2011-11-16 08:57:12 UTC
These ships, from what I've seen, and what my friends that PvP alot have said, will generally NOT be doing their own tackle/web, due to them being OMGDPS style fleet ships
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#13 - 2011-11-16 09:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
sYnc Vir wrote:
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.


The ship was designed to be an armor tank, so I tested it as an armor tank and it was also one of my very first attempts. But be assured I improved on the setup and found one that works better, for me at least, since I am not a shield-tank-FOTM chaser. Thank you.

Yes you are rude and I consider you to be ******* clueless.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-11-16 09:47:47 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.[/i]



According to CCP, the ships are meant to have the same role in the fleet. Bring dps to sub-BS fleets. The race choice should be only a matter of personnal preference, not a case of "this ship is the best for what we're going to do, and that one is useless". If you reason like that, you already admit that the balance is broken.


And come on, 70km falloff with barrage. If you're fine with that, I question your objectivity. AC are a close-range weapon. Yes, they should have more range than blasters because of lower damage. 40-60% more range would be balanced. But 70km is ****-bat insane. You don't really need a long range gun anymore with something like that.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-11-16 13:24:59 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.



while you have a point, the truth is, with the current stats, the tornado is a better skirmisher/brawler than the talos.

while range might not be an issue, the fact that it doesn't have the mobility it needs to be used at point blank, plus the marginal damage differences between blasters and pulses/AC's, means that in nearly any situation concievable, it's better to bring either a oracle or a tornado than a talos, since it will perform well enough at much longer ranges, meaning a much bigger "cushion" to escape in case of things getting hot.

talos can't do this because he needs to commit every time to be able to bring its full brunt to bear (IE sitting below 20km)

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#16 - 2011-11-16 14:00:57 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.[/i]



According to CCP, the ships are meant to have the same role in the fleet. Bring dps to sub-BS fleets. The race choice should be only a matter of personnal preference, not a case of "this ship is the best for what we're going to do, and that one is useless". If you reason like that, you already admit that the balance is broken.


And come on, 70km falloff with barrage. If you're fine with that, I question your objectivity. AC are a close-range weapon. Yes, they should have more range than blasters because of lower damage. 40-60% more range would be balanced. But 70km is ****-bat insane. You don't really need a long range gun anymore with something like that.


The Mach has a 109KM Fall Off with Barrage, I've yet to see a single thread calling for it to be nuffed because its short range weapons are to far reaching. Its not like Machs are super pricey now either. They only cost 700M with is far far cheaper then the Nightmare, Vindy or Bhaal.

The fact is at 70KM the tornado will be doing so much less DPS then intended it won't matter at all to the Talos, which of course can just warp out. If you really want my opinion then I would in fact return the Talos web bonus so it could in fact keep everything in range, in range. This then makes it so the pilots that fly the ships better(work the range on field) win.

By the way, has anyone looked at the Talos side by side with a Brutix? If someone could and post the stats here, that would be far more interesting then looking at it against another race. I have a feeling the lack of tank is in no way worth the small rise in dps.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-16 16:22:27 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
[i]If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?


The problem isn't that blasters don't work like ACs. The problem is that ACs do work like blasters.

Meaning that ACs are about as good as blasters at applying DPS at close range. Add in the mobility advantages of the AC hull, and the falloff that means that the AC user doesn't need to risk his ship inside web range, and there's basically no reason to use a blasterboat.

ACs are simply too good at being blasters. When fitted to ships, they're too good at getting to close range and apply too much DPS once they get there.
IceAero
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-11-16 18:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: IceAero
Talos needs a web bonus.

End of discussion? Who would be against this? And how would it not fix everything?

Forget the tracking bonus!!! Give it +1 low slot, simple fix.

5% damage bonus, and either a range or strength bonus to webs. I think strength would be best...

AND, with the extra low slot, it will still be the damage king. AND NOT be a better rail platform than the Naga (The tracking speed bonus makes 425mms with antimatter more effective).
TrollFace TrololMcFluf
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-11-16 19:24:27 UTC
compare apples to grenades i see this ending well
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-11-16 19:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: tika te
it's not about ac vs. blasters.

it's about being competitive - and flying a talos you're not.

taliking about "better warpins" and "flying properly" is cheap talk - reality on tq looks different.
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