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Marauders and drones...

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#21 - 2013-10-09 17:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I don't know about you, Dinsdale, but I find it somewhat difficult to lose a Hob II unless I'm not watching rat aggro or drone damage properly. Granted that Incursion rats hate drones somewhat more than other K-space rats, but this is why I said elsewhere that you may need to consider adding better anti-frigate capabilities to your fleet.

You're trying to shoehorn what is essentially a new ship into an old flying technique and it isn't going to work as well as you want it to.

Bring ships with medium guns. I hear the Proteus can mount a scary armor tank (for now) and has smaller guns that are better-suited to anti-frig work as well as lots and lots of well-bonused drones of its own. Fit TC IIs where your webs used to go and script them for tracking. If you must, have one or two of your Paladins fit Dual Heavy Pulse IIs instead of Mega Pulses. If you simply must use drones, then consider replacing your Hob IIs with Hammerhead IIs and restricting their use to close-range frigates where you can pull them back quickly once they start taking aggro.
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-10-09 18:34:39 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I don't know about you, Dinsdale, but I find it somewhat difficult to lose a Hob II unless I'm not watching rat aggro or drone damage properly. Granted that Incursion rats hate drones somewhat more than other K-space rats, but this is why I said elsewhere that you may need to consider adding better anti-frigate capabilities to your fleet.

You're trying to shoehorn what is essentially a new ship into an old flying technique and it isn't going to work as well as you want it to.

Bring ships with medium guns. I hear the Proteus can mount a scary armor tank (for now) and has smaller guns that are better-suited to anti-frig work as well as lots and lots of well-bonused drones of its own. Fit TC IIs where your webs used to go and script them for tracking. If you must, have one or two of your Paladins fit Dual Heavy Pulse IIs instead of Mega Pulses. If you simply must use drones, then consider replacing your Hob IIs with Hammerhead IIs and restricting their use to close-range frigates where you can pull them back quickly once they start taking aggro.


What using more than cookie cutter pwnmobile fits and adapting to changes? Blasphemy. But seriously, +1d
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#23 - 2013-10-09 18:36:08 UTC
If we're going to see Marauders reduced from 75Mbit bandwidth to 50, I would personally like to see them have 100m3 bay. This allows for two flights of mediums, since they're so prone to death compared to lights, or one flight each of lights, mediums and salvagers. You could even opt for two flights of lights and two flights of salvagers or three flights of lights or four flights of salvagers or....

..and none of it would increase available drone DPS beyond what a flight of mediums can provide, all while enabling that wonderful flexibility everyone so adores.
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC
#24 - 2013-10-09 19:58:52 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I don't know about you, Dinsdale, but I find it somewhat difficult to lose a Hob II unless I'm not watching rat aggro or drone damage properly. Granted that Incursion rats hate drones somewhat more than other K-space rats, but this is why I said elsewhere that you may need to consider adding better anti-frigate capabilities to your fleet.

You're trying to shoehorn what is essentially a new ship into an old flying technique and it isn't going to work as well as you want it to.

Bring ships with medium guns. I hear the Proteus can mount a scary armor tank (for now) and has smaller guns that are better-suited to anti-frig work as well as lots and lots of well-bonused drones of its own. Fit TC IIs where your webs used to go and script them for tracking. If you must, have one or two of your Paladins fit Dual Heavy Pulse IIs instead of Mega Pulses. If you simply must use drones, then consider replacing your Hob IIs with Hammerhead IIs and restricting their use to close-range frigates where you can pull them back quickly once they start taking aggro.


Isn't the Golem still sporting a bonus to Target Painters (which are themselves a good way to draw NPC aggro and improve your ability to kill smaller ships).
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#25 - 2013-10-09 20:41:24 UTC
For missioning, apart from probably killing those pesky Spider II drones, combat drones are now utterly useless. Atleast I don't see any use for them with my Paladin.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#26 - 2013-10-09 20:57:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


Thank god.

I thoroughly enjoy my web on my Paladin and am thankful for the bonus it has. It would be useless on a Golem though, so glad that's gone. With these changes, I'll probably be able to shove one on my Kronos now, too.

I agree with the increase in tractor range idea, too. I've also asked for it a few times now, lol.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#27 - 2013-10-09 21:20:07 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

What is the point of a larger bay, which just means more small drones fed to the NPC AI.
Now, if you are talking a larger bay, AND Bandwidth, so we can fit sentries, like we do now, then that is different.


>Can't kill small things with his own guns without webs.

>Wants to use sentries.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#28 - 2013-10-09 21:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
With reference to the hull nerfs.
Relooking at the T2 resists to make the hulls more viable outside Bastion would be a useful thing. These hulls should not be reliant on using Bastion to be effective. The speed nerf would also be worth looking at a bit. They don't need to be the fastest attack battleships out there, but base speed equivalent to the combat battleships would be reasonable, especially given they will be stopping any time they use Bastion so need to get speed back up again afterwards.

The web bonus staying away I agree with as it makes no sense given the range projection of these ships with increased range.

Finally, addressing the tractor range would be worthwhile. Either via full removal if the tractor structure is good enough (in which case additional cargo bay is required) or increasing it.
Darkwolf
#29 - 2013-10-09 22:42:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.


Yep, I'd like to see this. Flexibility is good, constraining bandwidth seems to be the right solution to control power level, but still let the hull carry some utility drones.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


Hell yeah. Definitely agree, the current bonuses synergize a lot better than a random web bonus slapped on.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#30 - 2013-10-10 09:06:49 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

What is the point of a larger bay, which just means more small drones fed to the NPC AI.
Now, if you are talking a larger bay, AND Bandwidth, so we can fit sentries, like we do now, then that is different.


>Can't kill small things with his own guns without webs.

>Wants to use sentries.



Because I use webs, when bonused.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-10-10 11:01:05 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

What is the point of a larger bay, which just means more small drones fed to the NPC AI.
Now, if you are talking a larger bay, AND Bandwidth, so we can fit sentries, like we do now, then that is different.

Umm... every ship that's shooting drones is not shooting you?

I think that doctrine is called drone tank, but I might be wrong about that.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#32 - 2013-10-10 12:04:46 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Because I use webs, when bonused.


Oh my god, Dinsdale, do you even Eve? By that logic you should switch from Paladins to lokis.

Invalid signature format
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#33 - 2013-10-10 12:32:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.



Nice to hear.

One thing I would like to see (and I think this may have been said by others as well) is the removal of the tractor bonuses, then bake in the extra m3 required to carry around your new tractor beam deployable structure. This means that people that use a Noctis or that are doing PvP with these ships won't have a "wasted" bonus and those that solo or don't use a Noctis still have a viable way of conducting business.

The bonus could then be made into something a little more "pleasing" to people maybe or just dropped completely.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#34 - 2013-10-10 12:47:21 UTC
I'd rather see what the rules are on those structures are first. What's their range? Will the get aggro? Etc..
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-10-10 16:46:12 UTC
Project XXVIII wrote:


Quote:
100/175 seem correct to me. You have large cargo hold, give it a large drone bay too, and 100 bandwidth for 4x sentry for great projected drone dps that is stationary next to you in Bastion mode for increased synergy without power creep (matches most faction / pirate drone bays). Otherwise the extra projection is sort of pointless.

I see where you're coming from with this,.. and with the new "structure mechanics" I'd love this as much as the next mission runner, but having said that, I can't see CCP agreeing to this, as it stands all Marauders get 75/75 at least, I can't see them buffing Drone Bandwidth when they're already doing so much to increase damage projection with the Bastion Module.

Quote:
Nerf bandwidth as you see fit but at least give us 75m3 drone bay

This in a nutshell,.. leave some flexibility.


I personally feel that 75-100mb bandwith should be given with at least 25m3 of extra space for the salvage or light drones. I am ok with that, but 50/75 seems like too little.

1v1 these things don't have the dps to kill each other until cap is completely dry and cap boosters are gone, and you are going to have run out of ammo long before this happens.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-10-10 16:49:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
With reference to the hull nerfs.
Relooking at the T2 resists to make the hulls more viable outside Bastion would be a useful thing. These hulls should not be reliant on using Bastion to be effective. The speed nerf would also be worth looking at a bit. They don't need to be the fastest attack battleships out there, but base speed equivalent to the combat battleships would be reasonable, especially given they will be stopping any time they use Bastion so need to get speed back up again afterwards.

The web bonus staying away I agree with as it makes no sense given the range projection of these ships with increased range.

Finally, addressing the tractor range would be worthwhile. Either via full removal if the tractor structure is good enough (in which case additional cargo bay is required) or increasing it.


The extra resists in bastion is one of the best features the mode has. T2 resists would make this overpowered.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-10-10 17:09:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


Can we address the stacking range bonus on the Bastion Mode? For the vargur in particular it only adds about 10-15km of falloff for AC's. The effect for Arty's was much larger, I think falloff was somewhere around 150km with a 50km optimal for short range ammo. The paladin with scorch will out dps the arties up to around 100km or so. This seems a little skewed, as the Golem / Kronos / Vargur(sans barrage) are all going to sit at around 60km or less for dps.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#38 - 2013-10-10 17:10:03 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
With reference to the hull nerfs.
Relooking at the T2 resists to make the hulls more viable outside Bastion would be a useful thing.


The extra resists in bastion is one of the best features the mode has. T2 resists would make this overpowered.



You don't need bastion, remember that the hulls come with a baked in rep bonus. In most cases you don't need to use Bastion at all. Having said that, when things don't go exactly to plan being able to Bastion down the hatches will save your bacon. The tank is already good, Bastion mode makes it borderline ridiculous...
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-10-10 17:37:15 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
TheFace Asano wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
With reference to the hull nerfs.
Relooking at the T2 resists to make the hulls more viable outside Bastion would be a useful thing.


The extra resists in bastion is one of the best features the mode has. T2 resists would make this overpowered.



You don't need bastion, remember that the hulls come with a baked in rep bonus. In most cases you don't need to use Bastion at all. Having said that, when things don't go exactly to plan being able to Bastion down the hatches will save your bacon. The tank is already good, Bastion mode makes it borderline ridiculous...




I am in complete agreement, and you can tailor your tank for incoming dps just like on live and just leave the bastion off for when and if you need it.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#40 - 2013-10-10 18:04:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
I don't understand why v2 had to have a blanket web bonus, when the complaints were about the removal of the existing [TQ] bonus on the Kronos (and Paladin). I've not seen anywhere any justification for this major change - equivalent to a 400% increase in target velocity compared to on TQ, that's a major kick in the nuts to the blaster-fit Kronos.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293