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Warp bubble + gate camp - how could I have done better?

Author
Balzor Helstrom
The Fibonacci Projection
#1 - 2013-10-07 01:38:49 UTC
Hi all,

I'd appreciate some advice re. what I did wrong in this situation and how to improve. Basically I was a fully covert Helios, coming back from an exploration expedition, with a Covert ops cloaking device and a 1MN MWD.

I jumped through a gate, saw a warp bubble in front of me, took a couple of seconds to look around and found a planet to warp to. I then aligned to it - with the intention of doing the MWD trick - did the whole cloak, MWD, warp bit and then found a warp bubble around me, leading to very rapid death.

I think I got the MWD trick right, although I admit that sometimes I align but then cloak doesn't seem to work for some reason which I can't quite fathom, but obviously it was the appearance of the warp bubble which led to my untimely death. Should I have just gone to full power, cloaked, and hoped to slip away, or did I just get unlucky?

Any advice would be appreciated (plus any thoughts re. why the cloak doesn't seem to work sometimes after I align).

Thanks,

Balzor.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-10-07 03:52:07 UTC
Well, let's start:
1) The MWD is something for non-covops ships. It can allow you to stay hidden while you align - but a covop can warp cloaked, so it's not needed.
2) A bubble at the origin of your warp is harmless, so whether or not you see one with your eyes doesn't make any difference. What is dangerous is a bubble at your destination.

Balzor Helstrom wrote:
cloak doesn't seem to work for some reason which I can't quite fathom
You do know that the cloak has a reactivation delay that prevents it from working for x seconds after you last uncloaked? For covop ships that delay is 5 seconds, for other ships it's usually much longer. I'm guessing that's what you are seeing.

In general, the best way to deal with bubbles is to have a tactical bookmark a few hundred km off the gate, so that you can warp to that bookmark without getting caught in the bubble. Of course, that requires that you've been in the system before, ideally when it's quite, to make those bookmarks. And during that time, you should also make a few safespots so that you don't have to warp to planets.

However, for a covop, a bubble usually shouldn't be that much of an issue, as the bubble itself doesn't decloak you, so you have all the time of the world to fly out of it. (The device in the center does decloak you, but not the bubble itself.) Some bubbles have containers/corpses/whatever around them to uncloak you, but those are rare.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-10-07 04:08:37 UTC
Quote:
1) The MWD is something for non-covops ships. It can allow you to stay hidden while you align - but a covop can warp cloaked, so it's not needed.
2) A bubble at the origin of your warp is harmless, so whether or not you see one with your eyes doesn't make any difference. What is dangerous is a bubble at your destination.


OP is in nullsec. Without a MWD he has no reasonable means of getting out of a bubble camp. If you just cloak and slowboat, you'll be decloaked.



It's entirely possible that in the heat of the moment, you hit the cloak twice and activated + deactivated. Otherwise, you got within 2000m of an object which decloaked you. Focus more on getting outo f the bubble than decloaking.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-10-07 04:23:54 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
OP is in nullsec. Without a MWD he has no reasonable means of getting out of a bubble camp. If you just cloak and slowboat, you'll be decloaked.
This is true if after a jump you land directly in a bubble.

But from the OP's description ("saw a warp bubble in front of me"), I figured that he was outside the bubble - in that case using the MWD doesn't help, actually, you'll just take longer to align.
Balzor Helstrom
The Fibonacci Projection
#5 - 2013-10-07 06:24:58 UTC
Hi,

Thanks for the replies - sorry if the bit re. the other bubble was confusing - that was just there and didn't play a part in this encounter.

Basically I wasn't in a bubble, aligned, and then was in one - i.e. they smacked one right on top of me. That much I'm sure of. :) I'm just wondering if I could have done anything to not have alerted them to my presence.

Balzor
J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-10-07 07:26:05 UTC
That 2nd bubble you got stuck in...that was either an Dictor bubble or a HIC bubble.

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Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-10-07 19:09:32 UTC
Oh I see now. I read "did the whole cloak, MWD, warp bit" and assumed that you actually did warp off and were caught at the planet.

As for not alerting them to my presence: as soon as you jump into the system they know you are there. For one, they see you in local and then there's the gate animation which tells them that you came thru that gate. And quite often they have a scout on the other side of the gate also (he may be cloaked), so they even know what you are flying.

If you jump into a gate camp, you have three options: burn back to gate, warp off or fight. When you are solo in a covop ship, the third option is of course a bad choice. Which leaves the other two. You have 60 seconds of gate cloak, so take your time to evaluate the situation to chose what to do. As J'Poll said, the 2nd bubble came from an interdictor or heavy interdictor. So, check the ships on grid and if you see one of those within ~20km of you, expect to get trapped in a bubble as soon as you drop gate cloak. Be aware that these ships might be cloaked. (If you can, quickly check the killmails for the pilots in the camp to see whether they usually have a dictor with them.)

Also, as soon as you drop gate cloak they know where you are and a good interceptor pilot will immediately start burning in your direction, even if you are only visible for a split-second. He'll try to get within 2000m of you to uncloak you and usually has a good chance of doing so.

If you decide to warp off, you are better off not using the MWD, as your align time will be shorter.
But if there is an interdictor, it is usually better to try to burn back to the gate. In that case, use cloak+MWD to get there as quickly as possible. (And overheat that MWD.) It's important that you don't use any offensive modules, as that is the only thing (beside death) that can prevent you from jumping out.
J'Poll
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-10-07 19:30:42 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Oh I see now. I read "did the whole cloak, MWD, warp bit" and assumed that you actually did warp off and were caught at the planet.

As for not alerting them to my presence: as soon as you jump into the system they know you are there. For one, they see you in local and then there's the gate animation which tells them that you came thru that gate. And quite often they have a scout on the other side of the gate also (he may be cloaked), so they even know what you are flying.

If you jump into a gate camp, you have three options: burn back to gate, warp off or fight. When you are solo in a covop ship, the third option is of course a bad choice. Which leaves the other two. You have 60 seconds of gate cloak, so take your time to evaluate the situation to chose what to do. As J'Poll said, the 2nd bubble came from an interdictor or heavy interdictor. So, check the ships on grid and if you see one of those within ~20km of you, expect to get trapped in a bubble as soon as you drop gate cloak. Be aware that these ships might be cloaked. (If you can, quickly check the killmails for the pilots in the camp to see whether they usually have a dictor with them.)

Also, as soon as you drop gate cloak they know where you are and a good interceptor pilot will immediately start burning in your direction, even if you are only visible for a split-second. He'll try to get within 2000m of you to uncloak you and usually has a good chance of doing so.

If you decide to warp off, you are better off not using the MWD, as your align time will be shorter.
But if there is an interdictor, it is usually better to try to burn back to the gate. In that case, use cloak+MWD to get there as quickly as possible. (And overheat that MWD.) It's important that you don't use any offensive modules, as that is the only thing (beside death) that can prevent you from jumping out.


To add on the bold/underlined part


Using a MWD will blow up your signature radius. The downside (on your end) to that is that locking you will be much faster, and once you are locked you can't cloak at all.

If they have a (near) insta locking ship, that MWD will certainly help them to get a lock before you can cloak again.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Balzor Helstrom
The Fibonacci Projection
#9 - 2013-10-08 09:26:26 UTC
Thanks Thomas and J'Poll - very good advice. I'll obviously have to be a bit more intelligent next time round, and I've started using wormholes to get around, so that helps too. :)

Balzor.
Groovechampion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-10-08 13:16:21 UTC
I had this happen to me the other day, and I was puzzled as to what I did wrong.

I was in null sec poking around in my Anathema. Getting there was no problem. When I tried to warp back, though, things got bad. I warped and got caught in a bubble. I MWD'd out of the bubble, and tried to cloak. It wouldn't let me cloak and I kept getting the error message "you can't cloak because someone is targeting you". The thing was there wasn't anyone within 2000m of me...just being targeted was enough to guarantee my doom.

Lesson learned: don't get targeted. Getting into the system isn't a problem. Next time, I am just going to fly out about 200,000 km from the gate and set up a point I can warp to. That should solve the issue, as I won't get caught in the bubble and will have plenty of time to cloak before being noticed.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-10-08 16:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
The advice in this thread against MWD is wrong.

As someone who has camped and traveled null sec gates for 5 years, trust me. I kill ships regularly who don't fly properly, when the reality is it's nearly impossible to kill someone who does. So, if you really don't want to get caught, here is how:

MWD is mandatory. Absolutely mandatory when travelling in null-sec. MWD-Cloak being better, and the obvious exception being fleets that use AB doctrine.

The OP had the right idea with attempting to mwd-cloak away from the bubble camp. I'll probably regret posting this here, but I'm pretty confident no matter what I post, it won't reduce the ignorance of my targets. So here goes.

So you've jumped through a gate...

...and there's hostiles on the other side. Maybe they are cloaked? (lots in local, none on scan, but signs of a gatecamp) Maybe you see an interdictor or bubble up? There are a few "right" things to do, and one big wrong one.

Wrong

You decide to initiate warp. After all, there is nobody on your overview, and your ship has a fast align time....oops, a sabre just decloaked and bubbled, and your velocity is now set to 0 m/s. Cloaking now does nothing, since the sabre and his buddies are burning towards your location and will bump into you momentarily.

Right

You breathe. Remember, you have gate-cloak giving you invuln for a few more seconds, relax and appraise the situation. Adrenaline or panic will not help you here.

So you have two options:

1) Crash the Gate. If you are in anything that can go 2,000 m/s or faster with mwd you stand a good chance of getting back to the gate, though much better if you cloak on the way. Obvious exceptions are not bringing a cloak when there are insta-web/scram/snipers. On the upside, you can appraise if there are these types of ships in a camp, since they will be de-cloaked and waiting to lock you. If you are caught on the other side of the gate you need to quickly re-appraise your situation and again pick 1) or 2).

2) Try to Get Through. Start by aligning out. This can include the mwd-cloak trick, depending on if your ship has a covert or improved cloak. Sometimes with an improved cloak it is worth it to slow-boat away cloaked in a random direction if the enemy is not making a concerted effort to de-cloak you. When you are in a small ship like helios, fit for speed and accel (at least a couple nanofibers) you should be able to escape a single bubble sabre by aligning, overheating mwd, activating mwd, and activating cloak (all in the same 'tick', hotkeys help a LOT for this). If a second bubble goes up, or you don't clear the first one, you'll have to resort to:

2b)By watching while zoomed-out, press alt occasionally and you should see when you clear the edge of the bubble to press warp. This will also help you determine if any hostile ships are at risk of de-cloaking you before you get away. If so: Consider changing direction to a perpendicular path from theirs. In three-dimensional space, the possible places you can be grows exponentially each second, so by choosing your path carefully you weigh the odds greatly in your favour.

Once you are out of the bubble, if you are in covert cloak, simply warp away. Improved cloak will be more of a judgement call based on:

-speed and range/distance of tackle ships
-your align time
-the persistence of the campers

Follow these simple guidelines, and once you've had some practice you should never get caught again. Imagine the possibilities, there are many 'unlikely' ships that fit the criteria. The only thing better than catching someone ignorant in a camp, is using knowledge and skill to evade a skilled camp.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#12 - 2013-10-09 10:26:05 UTC
The above is great advice, even for a 6 year old player like me.

I would like to highlight the following...

Quote:
2b)By watching while zoomed-out, press alt occasionally and you should see when you clear the edge of the bubble to press warp. This will also help you determine if any hostile ships are at risk of de-cloaking you before you get away. If so: Consider changing direction to a perpendicular path from theirs. In three-dimensional space, the possible places you can be grows exponentially each second, so by choosing your path carefully you weigh the odds greatly in your favour.


I have slowboated cloaked through many bubbles avoiding hostiles like this.

One of the most memorable and difficult was the exit from the system they first seeded with Noctis Blueprints. I had setup in that system with a covert ops ship ready for patch day. Knowing full well what to expect on my attempted exit.

So I bought a few BPs and launched from the station.... the system was swarming with pirates waiting for juicy kills.

When I go to the gate (warped in at ramge from a safe, not directly from the station) I saw the most bubbled gate I have ever seen. swarming with orbiting Pirates and Drones.

Took me a long time to slowboat through the bubbles trying to avoid being decloaked, but I made it out.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.