Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This simply cannot happen:

BPO's and BPC's have the same base material requirements. At ME 0 and PE 0 (the starting point of a BPO), there is 10% "waste" added to the material requirements of a build. When you research a BPO ME Level, this "waste" is reduced. Every BPO has a "perfect ME" level that, if you take the time to research it, would allow you to create the item without any wasted materials. Currently, all invented BPC's start off at ME -4 and PE -4, and while decryptors will improve the ME & PE levels, it won't improve them to be higher than ME -1. This means a BPO will always produce an item with less waste.

I would remove also the BPO Tech II

I don't like the BPO Tech II they are destroying the system of invention (skill requ. for the inventions are overruled cause you don't need to invent) and create a very strong market force (depending on the BPO) for the owner.

But I would not put them in a lottery for a new force of market force for anyone. Each have to invent for his profit, now back to depending on skills and a bit luck.

I think, that the luck and profit was long enough in this game for the owners.

I fail to see how owning a bpo is destroying the system for invention, inventors get some profit and a bpo owner gets a little more profit. The prices today are nothing compared to how they were several years ago and that is thanks to invention

425mm Railgun II currently priced @ 3.25mil each in jita, before invention came along they were priced 20-25mil each
Energized adaptive nano membrane II currently priced @ 800k each in jita, before invention they were 8-10mil each

if the bpos were really destroying invention those prices wouldn't be that low considering there both widely used through out the eve universe. Its due to invention and the current player base that they are actually kept that low and even on the off chance if they ever did rise players would still have their own chance of making them themselves instead of searching around for the bpo owners as was done back then to try and get discounts before the products were put on the market.

improved cloaking device II and covert ops cloaking device II, the majority if not all of those blueprints disappeared in the past due to a rule breaker who collected them and got banned for something silly. These days most likely all of those cloaks are produced through invention alone and at the same time the profit margin is still in the hands of the inventors.

as for the skill requirements even without invention they were still used especially by the players who invested time into doing R&D and also by the players who owned or prepared their characters to own a t2 bpo while the skill requirements was mostly lvl 1 on the science skills you also have to bare in mind how many of those players would actually like to have their skill set showing such a dismal display of skilling and probably got them to lvl 4 or above just so it'd look better. as for the encryption racial skills im not sure if they were seeded as new skills for invention upon release or if they were actually skills that had their names changed from cosmos bpc production.

I'm curious to see how those of you who want to get rid of the T2 bpos would compensate the players who didn't win them from the lotto or through other means but actually bought them from other players especially with how the prices are these days with isk that they had saved up

I don't care about that I haven't had any chance to win any of these blueprints. (I also don't invent anything and not interessted about it, so this "argument" is without basement.) The old System of the Tech II BPO system is out of date by the invention system. Sandbox in all way should also be full supported and not only half way.

It doesn't matter that the prices fallen to that million. Still the owner of these BPO's have a 100% profit in compare to a person who have to invent it.

I don't like these sort of system that works in the middle of all or nothing.
Either creating all with the invention system.
Or creating all with the bpo tech II system.

That is my view of the BPO Tech II system.

It could also be that, the system of these diversity in this Tech II share in the market is wanted by CCP.

@ CCP
Would be very nice to get a statement about it. In that sort we can stop to talk until one is blue in the face. ^^

Except the holder of the BPO still has a multi-billion ISK item that they can sell. After it's paid off it's pure profit. The problem is that is never depreciates. The people who keep going on about how they take forever to make money with are forgetting that they can turn around and still sell the thing. Unless the BPO starts losing actual resale value after they purchase it, they're still pure ISK printing machines. The problem is that nothing better can come out in EVE. In the real world IP depreciates because better ideas come along. That's what keeps everything moving. But T2 BPO holders literally hold something that can never get worse while the item is still in demand. They can be competed with, but ultimately they will make anyone who has one rich.

I like one of the previous posters suggestion...

Give Tech 2 BPOs a very high number of remaining runs, but they will eventually fall out. For the collectors out there, they will still exist and be worth collecting. For the industrialists, they will still get to print a lot of money out of it, but eventually the last run will be consumed or they will be permanently retired to the dustbins of collectibles.

The value of a BPO does change, quite dramatically. This is because the value of modules and ships in game change quite dramatically as the devs balance, rebalance, meta changes, and the like significantly change the demand of their product.

Next, the biggest issue of BPO's is the limited risk in using them. You can't use a guardian vexor without risking its destruction. You can't use any ship for that matter without risking its destruction. Unfortunately, this doesn't hold true for BPO's. BPO's can be safely utilized from a station, from a personal hangar, where it is impossible to lose it. This is what needs to be addressed (and it should target ALL BPO users, not just blingy ones).

good point

you may not care about that but what about the rest of the players?

I don't know weather or not you are a alt or if you're a main as I don't know you, however considering you're coming up to 18 months into the game I can understand your frustration with regards to not even being given that chance. If and I say if they were to seed those bpos again it would most likely be on piece meal like they did before and if they took into account the # of those bpos that were destroyed and inactive for say 12months+ that would probably add a few more to the list to be seeded. The question is then their method of how to introduce them back into the game.

lets say they went with the old system even though it did stir up a lot of anguish towards ccp back then. The # of research points you have from R&D agents where you get datacore's from today is basically the ticket system they used. You stated that you don't invent anything so I'm going to assume you have less then 500k sp in science, so lets say that they said they were going to do a once off introduction of t2 bpos again and it would start upon the release of rubicon which is supposedly being released on the 19th of November. The skilling required to get at least 4 agents and any science division that you would like to get a bpo from to level 5 would take up to 35-40 days dependant on your implants and attribute setup and lets say during that time you were doing missions so you could use at least lvl 3 agents for R&D. you'd end up with say roughly 8-10k research points/tickets while at the same time there are players out there who did not spend their points on datacore's since they found out about the release and racked up at least 18k per character they have as they setup for it before and then you have a lot of inactive accounts suddenly become active again because those players have millions of research points stored on all 3 characters per account.

as you can see from that along while you would still have a chance, it would be a very small one and that is what many players including myself had to face previously. The only way some of us who weren't lucky enough to win one was through buying from other players while dodging the resellers.

trillions of isk has been spent buying said bpos from other players and to have them completely removed or seeded onto the market or even turned into a # of runs would cause a uproar among those players and I really don't think CCP would like to make all of them that angry as it could cost them a fair amount of their current player base because of the time and effort those players put in to making the isk to actually buy one of those bpos only to then see it turned in to just another t1/cap bpo everyone can get their hands on.

I actually wouldn't object to T1 BPOs requiring maintenance of some kind. That would actually make it better for the industrialists who want to keep a competitive advantage. That alone wouldn't give them a lead over someone new to industry, but it would give them a consistent lead over people who do it more casually the same way real life skills fade with time.

As for T2 BPOs, if they all were given some very large number of remaining runs then you would give anyone who had spent billions of ISK on their BPO time to at least recoup the cost through making things, but eventually the value would depreciate.

In terms of the Rifter though, the point was made that the Rifter cannot make money without risk. You cannot make money from it and not risk it. Also anyone can make or have a Rifter with little to no investment. A better example would be a Guardian-Vexor, but as we've seen recently when you play with one, it can be lost. If someone wanted to just sit and stare that their pretty T2 BPOs and not actually use them from their perfect safety, then sure that would be fine with everyone.

As for sour grapes... for many, sure. But that's not my beef or concern or whatever you want to call it. I'm actually not that invested in this. From a game design perspective I believe things should either be risked or depreciate with use. With ships and modules you risk them each time you take them out. With BPCs, they depreciate. BPOs are really the only thing that aren't necessarily risked and don't depreciate. BPOs could depreciate slowly, both T1 and T2. Though I would recommend different mechanisms for each.

A 1000 run BPC wouldn't be nearly large enough to compensate someone who just bought a BPO.

T2 BPO's have very few markets "cornered". They give an advantage, but cost an enormous amount of isk...

The only thing that should be addressed, is ALL BPO's should require some "risk" to fully utilize them. Arbitrary risks, like requiring them to be run from a corp hangar, simply aren't enough. I would advocate all BPO's need to be run at a POS (but from a module that can be "cleared out" if the POS comes under attack and is RF'd. Unfortunately, this would undermine the ability of a new player getting involved in S&I. We really need some middle ground.... and I don't know how to implement it.