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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#281 - 2013-10-08 14:34:33 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The Vengeance builds from the Punisher, but it's not exactly a very strong laser ship, and it certainly doesn't have the same speed. T2 ships are more specialized which often means losing something that the t1 variant had.
This is great reasoning, if we were talking about AFs. Since we're talking about EAFs, which strongly follow their T1 flavors, and in many respects are just flat-out better than their T1 counterparts in every measurable metric, the Keres should retain more of its T1 flavor. I mean hell, the Sentinel gains bonuses to neut range/amount AND gets more drones than a Crucifier.

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#282 - 2013-10-08 14:35:33 UTC
Also people seem to not be considering the effects the warp changes will have

Those changes really REALLY need to be considered when balancing frigates now.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#283 - 2013-10-08 14:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.


Your fast frigate is probably

1) Not that much faster, if it is even as fast
2) Gets neuted out at 35k/webbed at 50k/jammed at 150k/damped to 500m lock range/scrammed at 25k

Sure, you can swarm an EAF with frigates, but if the counter to a ship is to bring 4 or 5 ships, thats pretty damn broken.

Eafs basically act as anti-tackle with their ewar, so sending tackle after them is not the best idea in the world
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#284 - 2013-10-08 14:36:04 UTC
I would like bonuses to web and point ranges to be cut down immensely, they're just crazy OP. This isn't an EAF thing, this is on recons and T3s (why do T3s even have these bonuses) as well. I don't recall the last time I saw a proper gang flying without bonused webs or both bonused webs and disruptors. It just never happens, because these bonuses are so lol that if you don't use them, you are basically terrible.

I'd prefer amarr neuting ships to have strength or cap usage bonuses, massive tanks and high speed. None of this kiting nonsense. Maybe reduce their base shield hp and resists to 0 to stop people dishonouring them with scrub fits. Maybe EAFs could be tanky and slow like AFs, but with ewar instead of weapons.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#285 - 2013-10-08 14:39:31 UTC
These ships will be incredibly strong in term of control. They will be lacking in terms of killing (except for the sentinel, which is a fine ship right now, and will get even better with rubicon).

Thus they will give you a calm time in FW if you're flying one for solo purposes, and a hot time in gangs if you're flying one, because all FCs will be screaming at their fleet to kill that EAF asap.

While a keres looks terrifying (damping people down so they can't even lock beyond it's scramrange), just through having to deal with 2 targets at once will make it struggle in the hands of inexpierienced pilots. After all, everything that has to happen is a swarm of Hobs or Warriors to get the order to attack it, and there it goes blue.

However, with the incoming changes to warpspeed and thus small-ship-gangs becoming a lot more mobile and the EAF becoming a lot more viable, i can see how a gang of a few Tech 2 Frigs can be a nightmare for unprepared people.


I myself welcome our new overlords, Hyena, Keres and Sentinel!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#286 - 2013-10-08 14:40:15 UTC
If your EAF is busy trying to evade your attack frigate, then it's not hammering your fleet with EWAR.

Frigate warping fast work both ways. An interceptor can easily warp out/warp in to ennemy EAF to kill them by surprise.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#287 - 2013-10-08 14:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
If your EAF is busy trying to evade your attack frigate, then it's not hammering your fleet with EWAR.

Frigate warping fast work both ways. An interceptor can easily warp out/warp in to ennemy EAF to kill them by surprise.


Are you serious?

You really cant stay within 150km of an enemy ship while avoiding a tackler?

Or lets say you do get close to one of them. Hyena double webs you, and their anti-tackle zealot or w/e 2 shots you. It then goes back to webbing w/e it wants
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#288 - 2013-10-08 14:48:18 UTC
Hell, kitsune can jam outside of sentry range
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#289 - 2013-10-08 14:52:26 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
...but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

Your mind must be a fascinating study What?

First: It is not a good thing that a ship is at a point where it cannot be engaged without back-up, glossing it over by saying that "it will probably just not get any fights" is a horrible way to justify it .. was that the same kind of internal reasoning/justification that went before releasing the Angel hulls that ended up causing a ****-storm and being nerfed to bring them in line I wonder?
Second: You don't need a small group, you need a fully fledged gang preferably of larger ships .. we are talking about 40+ km points and 30+ km medium neuts and webs on/against frigates for Goddess sake.
CCP Rise wrote:
I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

Do it. Pull their teeth .. please.

Better they be useless without a crew behind them than one needing a crew to face them. Would be a perfect solution to the issues actually, as eWar is support and when the time comes for the Recons with their dual-option to be tweaked you can let one be eWar specific with the other being combat oriented (ex. Curse being more support based (yes, means axing drones but 'meh') and Pilgrim essentially being a light HAC with a twist.

Speaking of Recons: They being held off on until you have a clear picture of where you want cyno mechanic to be or is it merely by chance that they haven't been touched yet?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#290 - 2013-10-08 14:59:07 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
If your EAF is busy trying to evade your attack frigate, then it's not hammering your fleet with EWAR.

Frigate warping fast work both ways. An interceptor can easily warp out/warp in to ennemy EAF to kill them by surprise.


Are you serious?

You really cant stay within 150km of an enemy ship while avoiding a tackler?

Or lets say you do get close to one of them. Hyena double webs you, and their anti-tackle zealot or w/e 2 shots you. It then goes back to webbing w/e it wants

Clarify the situation please. If they have a whole army of EAF + every possible link and you only have one frigate, of course you're gonna die, but it's another scale of fight.

The Kitsune will be really slow for example ; these ships all have a rather high mass and their speed is not that high compared to combat frigate ; attack frigate will be a LOT faster than them ; not to mention interceptors.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#291 - 2013-10-08 14:59:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

Thanks for the feedback.

So far I'm noticing two major threads
  • wtf are you thinking these are insanely strong (especially in FW frig 1v1 type environments)
  • wtf why didn't you reduce the sig or increase the hp/speed to make them more survivable

    • This seems pretty okay I think. I agree that some of them will make really OP 1v1 ships, but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

    I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

    I'll keep watching the discussion and will also pay really close attention to their use after release and adjust as needed.

    Hopefully they're just really fun


    don't even know what to say to this .... how you think these are balanced is amazing really ... surely you can't think recons are balanced with the sort of ranges they can pump out e-war.. e-war kills small gang warfare everything is seemingly geared towards fleet warfare on a medium to large scale level which just ends up making either alpha blobs or in small gang one side will dominate the other side by having more e-war .. either way is dull...
    what happened to the talos/ nano cruiser style warfare ???
    all this easy access OP e-war is the exact counter to these things and not in a good way kind of counter either.

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #292 - 2013-10-08 15:39:18 UTC
    Quote:
    This is great reasoning, if we were talking about AFs. Since we're talking about EAFs, which strongly follow their T1 flavors, and in many respects are just flat-out better than their T1 counterparts in every measurable metric, the Keres should retain more of its T1 flavor. I mean hell, the Sentinel gains bonuses to neut range/amount AND gets more drones than a Crucifier.


    AFs also largely follow their t1 flavors. All AFs are, however, substantially slower than their t1 counterparts.


    Quote:
    Your fast frigate is probably

    1) Not that much faster, if it is even as fast
    2) Gets neuted out at 35k/webbed at 50k/jammed at 150k/damped to 500m lock range/scrammed at 25k

    Sure, you can swarm an EAF with frigates, but if the counter to a ship is to bring 4 or 5 ships, thats pretty damn broken.

    Eafs basically act as anti-tackle with their ewar, so sending tackle after them is not the best idea in the world


    I don't see how this is different than traditional ewar ships. A Falcon or Rook will permajam pretty much any single ship. A Falcon Curse will neut/TD any single ship into uselessness. A Lachesis/Arazu can point/damp at very long ranges, and actually deal damage (Albeit not a ton) at those ranges.

    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #293 - 2013-10-08 15:39:35 UTC
    It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

    I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

    I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

    One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

    I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.

    @ccp_rise
    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #294 - 2013-10-08 15:45:41 UTC
    Quote:
    Also people seem to not be considering the effects the warp changes will have

    Those changes really REALLY need to be considered when balancing frigates now.


    EAFs only have a major warp speed advantage over cruiser hulls now...and the cruiser solution to the EAF problem is the same as it always was: dump a flight of lights on them and watch them explode.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #295 - 2013-10-08 15:49:46 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

    I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

    I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

    One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

    I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.


    please don't change a thing they are perfect on sisi

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #296 - 2013-10-08 15:51:01 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    It seems to me like those of you that are most concerned are players who really dislike ewar as a system, and therefor dislike these ships. I'm not sure anything but keeping these nerfed into the ground is going to sound good to you, and I understand that as a player who struggled with ewar a lot.

    I don't feel convinced that they will be so good they will blot out the sun and no one will be able to have a fight, and I've said if that becomes a big issue we will make tweaks.

    I also don't think the tackling ranges are a problem. Killing support has gotten substantially easier over the last couple years and tackling has gotten harder as a result. I think having some support ships around that are difficult to fly well, have a different style than recons but provide some similar functions seems really positive for gangs of many sizes.

    One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with.

    I'll make sure we talk about this internally some before they ship and if others feel concerned we can tune the ewar or lock ranges down a bit.


    Dear ******* christ on a stick. I don't dislike ewar, i think ewar is a great thing mostly, it is however tricky to balance.

    We also really should differentiate the control ewar from the debuff ewar. Webs, scrams and neuts really aren't the same as ECM, damps and tp's (Actually tp's aren't like anything but thats another issue)

    The only debuff ewar here i take an issue with is ECM at 150 km, which really boggles my mind that you don't have a problem with.
    Its being able to neut, scram and web at those extreme ranges thats completely ******.

    You seem to be taking the same line of thought to this as the NOS changes which is "we will see how this will affect the meta and then do more". Which was bad for that but not awful, because everyone knew that those changes weren't going to **** up the meta at all. With this however you seem to be suggesting that its OK to **** up the meta entirely until the next expansion to see what happens. Thats just, i don't even..

    And again, i cannot stress enough how much of a buff the warp changes are already to EAF's.. and i love those changes.. But that coupled with these bonuses is absolutely mindbogglingly overpowered.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #297 - 2013-10-08 15:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
    Kahega Amielden wrote:
    Quote:
    Also people seem to not be considering the effects the warp changes will have

    Those changes really REALLY need to be considered when balancing frigates now.


    EAFs only have a major warp speed advantage over cruiser hulls now...and the cruiser solution to the EAF problem is the same as it always was: dump a flight of lights on them and watch them explode.



    EAF's warp faster than normal frigates, you will literally only have a couple of seconds warning from them showing up on scan until they land on grid.

    Also a flight of lights? Are we even playing the same game here?

    Edit: Sorry for double posting, should have edited this into my former post.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Veshta Yoshida
    PIE Inc.
    Khimi Harar
    #298 - 2013-10-08 15:58:51 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    ...One thing I can agree about is that it's important for them to be close enough to be countered and the extreme lock range might put that at risk. That said, their lock range is almost the same as the t1 disruption frigs which are faster and have smaller sig, and no one is saying t1 disruption frigs are impossible to deal with...

    No one and/or only a few are saying that the primary eWar is what risks breaking them .. it is the excessive point, neut and web ranges that will do them in. Sentinel (with which I am most familiar) is insanely fun as is, a scalpel that breaks easily but cuts oh so sweetly when everything is 'just right' .. post change it will be a great big glass mallet, good against everything thanks to needing a LR cruiser or BS to hit it while still dying to the same things as now, it doesn't need neuting power out in the medium range to function.

    But if you promise on everything you hold dear (ie. the Special Edition Beer Guzzling MyLittlePony™ above your bed) to keep close tabs on them and tweak when things go out of control I'll be contented .. just as long as it won't be a repeat of the TE, Angel etc. where outcries went on for years before the Big Eye deemed it worthy to look at.
    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #299 - 2013-10-08 15:59:15 UTC
    Quote:
    EAF's warp faster than normal frigates, you will literally only have a couple of seconds warning from them showing up on scan until they land on grid.

    Also a flight of lights? Are we even playing the same game here?


    Frigates warp at 6 AU/s. New EAFs (as with AFs and bombers) are 6.75. Destroyers 5.25 up from 3.

    The large jump is between dessies and cruisers


    With regards to drones: EAFs are really bad at dealing with drones. Also, any medium weapon that gets in range will kill an EAF in seconds (admittedly, the longer ranged EAFs will probably not be in range very often)
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #300 - 2013-10-08 16:02:31 UTC
    Kahega Amielden wrote:
    Quote:
    EAF's warp faster than normal frigates, you will literally only have a couple of seconds warning from them showing up on scan until they land on grid.

    Also a flight of lights? Are we even playing the same game here?


    Frigates warp at 6 AU/s. New EAFs (as with AFs and bombers) are 6.75. Destroyers 5.25 up from 3.

    The large jump is between dessies and cruisers


    With regards to drones: EAFs are really bad at dealing with drones. Also, any medium weapon that gets in range will kill an EAF in seconds (admittedly, the longer ranged EAFs will probably not be in range very often)


    http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65063/1/WarpSpeedAfter.jpg



    And yea, some of the EAF's are bad at dealing with drones.. but most aren't really unless we are talking bonused lights here. Also controlling your drones tends to be hard when jammed/damped.

    Ohh and then of course there is a ton of frigates, destroyers and cruisers that don't have aflight of lights.

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