These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

[pyfa][rubicon][preview] Bastion Module and Marauder Changes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-10-07 12:17:02 UTC
Hopefully if it makes it onto sisi today we'll get some solid stats. I'm off to bed but sadly won't have a chance to be one of the first to test but it will be interesting I once they do a mirror. I've spent a lot of time on training for these hulls in a min/max kind of way so should be interesting. I'll be checking back here in the morning to see the news hopefully. 😊
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-10-07 21:21:01 UTC
Looks like they've made it onto sisi now, anyone able yo post updated stats? Mirror is hopefully going to happen in the next ten days with our characters.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#23 - 2013-10-07 23:49:31 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
tested and when going with the common deadspace med booster fit the golem easily gets 1.4+k tank vs amarr / sansha while projecting way over 200km with ranges :/ - the only problem now is wheres the bonus to TP optimal and fallof to actually utilize those ? because at 100km the TP bonus starts to drop rather heavy

i dont rly see here any real benefits to the pve usage because marauders never lacked in tank in the first place
i feel like CCP rly wanted to help those afk missioners with this change only Twisted


Right now I'm using 2 tracking comps and 2 invulns on the Vargur. With the new setup I can drop into the action instead of out of it, and have 2 free slots with the same range and tank, and more cap. That's pretty huge for missions. Not to mention EWAR invulnerability, which is even bigger. That's for missions. You'll be able to solo C4 sites now also, which is huge for PvE and PvP, because you know people will try to jump you.

And they have that new deploy-able item that will salvage for you, just drop that and you're good to go, so you can throw the newly fixed NOS's in the high slots.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
stoicfaux
#24 - 2013-10-08 00:07:34 UTC
I took a Golem with a ~230 tank versus Angels (Pithum C MSB, Invul II) and tanked full room aggro in the AE bonus room for 4m 7s while in Bastion mode. No shooting, except to pop the trigger that spawns the extra battleships, and just sat there to see how long it would last.

Two Words: Bastion Module frees up a lot of mid slots you would have used for tank, i.e. running with 4 TPs and putting those 4 TPs on everything is easy and stress free.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#25 - 2013-10-08 00:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
stoicfaux wrote:

Two Words: Bastion Module frees up a lot of mid slots you would have used for tank, i.e. running with 4 TPs and putting those 4 TPs on everything is easy and stress free.



It does not, I just flown the new Kronos for about 90 minutes(2 AE + 1 Vengeance).

Fitting:

[Kronos, devs are bad at the game]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump II


Garde II x1
Hobgoblin II x5


Overall the rail performance is horrible compared to the current version by the lack of sentry dps and blaster game play feels hilarious bad compared to Mach, Vindi or navy Apoc, since you fly a 828m/s brick that has to stand still to get useful range with Null(what does less dps than the current rail + sentry version).

I fly the same setup with rails currently with one more EANM instead of the TE and it produces faster mission times, is a lot more mobile, miles more flexible with the range, got better DPS at 30km+ and still got a extreme handy EW bonus.

My golem is the worst BS I flown since QR(and trust me 800m/s megas where utterly pointless) and is completely useless with torps this way. As for tank, I have no issues now, with the changes it just gets hilarious easy(3 cycles for AE without the bonus pocket, 4 for Vengance). What?

Cipher Jones wrote:


And they have that new deploy-able item that will salvage for you, just drop that and you're good to go, so you can throw the newly fixed NOS's in the high slots.


Since you didn't try yet, Nos behave the same for pve and became completely useless for BS in pvp. Also the structure just acts as tractor beam, it doesn't salvage.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#26 - 2013-10-08 01:05:02 UTC
The Djego wrote:
marVLs wrote:
New marauders are like bad sandwich... One piece of meat and 10 slices of bread... (overtanked, don't needed)


+1

You can already fly marauders with 2-3 slot tanks in L4 without issues. In the end it is just a mobility plus dps nerf(sentry's) and a massive nerf to the Paladin and Kronos with the lack of strong webs in exchange for lazy mode tanking. It also kills her appeal for Incs and other gang pve scenarios like WH.

Torp golem stays gimped(heck it was slow and will be brick with the changes), speed nerf for the Vargur makes it completely pointless it compared to my armor mach, Kronos become hilarious bad as rail/sentry platform without sentry's, the speed nerf and the inability to keep rail and sentry damage up at close(useless 60% webs). The only hull that might be a bit improved for L4 is the paladin with the optimal bonus, then again if you already used sentry's you don't gain much from it.

Overall fairly disappointing changes, at least for people that already did utilize marauders.


pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. only thing making rail kronos competitive was that drone bay. blasters will certainly be more viable, but they still don't seem that attractive in lv4s.

I was hoping the golem would be getting a speed boost in the spirit of the raven changes, and the kronos getting a rof bonus, and/or drone bandwidth/bay boost. I think the paladin gets more than it needed in terms of boosting. as for the vargur, well I have no idea what I wanted there.

I don't think the loss of a web bonus hurts either the kronos or paladin much in lv4s, but seems like it will suck for incursions and maybe wormholes.

on the test server and the paladin just looks lulz. the cruise golem has 18km/s fury cruise missiles with bastion, 5% velocity implant, and 2 velocity rigs, probably swap to a t2 rof rig and t1 velocity rig although need to try torps too.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#27 - 2013-10-08 02:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton
and I dunno, but a golem with 1112.9 pure damage type (4 faction damage mods, t2 rof rig, 5% implants) seems pretty good. oh and 15.6km/s missiles. and it is trivial to fit 4 60% target painters.

heh, a null kronos is showing 1128 dps with a similar fit (2 tracking comps), although I have a 5% laser implant instead of 5% hybrid, and thats at 19.33+49.16 **** me the kronos gets shafted.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Isinero
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-10-08 07:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Isinero
good job...

I created excel file for that but this is much much better :-)

THAAAAAANK YOUUU :-D

edit: one little thing is not working for me and its choosing ship equipment but if you know names and know what you wants to fit its not a big issue :-) / there is incorrect range but its some little issues and fort tank values it works really great

something around 1500 - 1700 tank in bastion / 1000 dps with tachyons / and something like 75 optimal range :-) if I will take xray I will have 90+

and whats the best is that its not "mega expensive" its pretty cheap fit and it can be even cheaper if I will lower tank which make sense.

I can even take afterburner, webifier or anything else. (even one cap recharger is enough) thanks to really big cap regen.
marVLs
#29 - 2013-10-08 08:48:57 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
[Right now I'm using 2 tracking comps and 2 invulns on the Vargur. With the new setup I can drop into the action instead of out of it, and have 2 free slots with the same range and tank, and more cap. That's pretty huge for missions. Not to mention EWAR invulnerability, which is even bigger. That's for missions. You'll be able to solo C4 sites now also, which is huge for PvE and PvP, because you know people will try to jump you.

And they have that new deploy-able item that will salvage for you, just drop that and you're good to go, so you can throw the newly fixed NOS's in the high slots.



Good luck with doing missions on Vargur with that range when standing still...
Vargur is now the worst marauder, slow like hell when hee need to move because of falloff, bastion range is stacking penalized so another stick in the eye...
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#30 - 2013-10-08 09:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Regarding pulses vs beams:

[Paladin, Beams]

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II

[Paladin, Pulses]

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/8-10-201311-58-37pimu.png

For Beams, a large ionic field projector or a sebo in the mids may be needed to take advantage of the extended range with some crystals. Moreover, tank can be reduced to two slots for a TE or a signal amp.
Isinero
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-10-08 10:03:39 UTC
Nice graphs ... I would say that with micro jump drive I would prefer tachyons over pulse. I can jump away so I can still be in optimal range far away from targets and they will at least in PvE go directly to me so angle will be most of the time 0.

The only problem which I can see is when scramblers reach me and I will need to kill them with drones which will take some time. I can imagine any other issues.

The one things make me sad. Its the drone bay.... It will be nice if they will at least increase drone bay.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#32 - 2013-10-08 11:27:23 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Good luck with doing missions on Vargur with that range when standing still...
Vargur is now the worst marauder, slow like hell when hee need to move because of falloff, bastion range is stacking penalized so another stick in the eye...

*shrug* Depends on your style, I guess. I usually don't move around in the Varg, anyway.

Did a couple of missions in the new one last night. It was ok. Something different, anyway. I tried using the MJD to jump into the middle of the NPCs and then bastion up (better for me than range tanking since I like to salvage as I go). Worked ok, although my 4-slot non-pimp tank gave out right near the end of Guristas Assault. Better management of groups probably would have helped. I wasn't trying particularly hard. Ewar immunity is certainly working, though. Yum.
Isinero
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-10-08 12:38:49 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Good luck with doing missions on Vargur with that range when standing still...
Vargur is now the worst marauder, slow like hell when hee need to move because of falloff, bastion range is stacking penalized so another stick in the eye...

*shrug* Depends on your style, I guess. I usually don't move around in the Varg, anyway.

Did a couple of missions in the new one last night. It was ok. Something different, anyway. I tried using the MJD to jump into the middle of the NPCs and then bastion up (better for me than range tanking since I like to salvage as I go). Worked ok, although my 4-slot non-pimp tank gave out right near the end of Guristas Assault. Better management of groups probably would have helped. I wasn't trying particularly hard. Ewar immunity is certainly working, though. Yum.


what build did you have? I just want to know to have an idea :-)
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#34 - 2013-10-08 17:25:47 UTC
Isinero wrote:
what build did you have? I just want to know to have an idea :-)


Totally off the cuff, mostly based on my current live build except for MJD and lows:

Highs: 800 ACs, 3 Tractors, Bastion
Mids: 2 Invulns, Large Shield Booster, LMJD, 2 TCs (usually range scripted)
Lows: 4 Gyros, DC
Rigs: T2 Burst Aerator, T1 Ambit
Drones: Salvage and Warriors

Will most likely not be my live build, but it's what I threw together on Sisi last night.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#35 - 2013-10-09 02:40:56 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
[Right now I'm using 2 tracking comps and 2 invulns on the Vargur. With the new setup I can drop into the action instead of out of it, and have 2 free slots with the same range and tank, and more cap. That's pretty huge for missions. Not to mention EWAR invulnerability, which is even bigger. That's for missions. You'll be able to solo C4 sites now also, which is huge for PvE and PvP, because you know people will try to jump you.

And they have that new deploy-able item that will salvage for you, just drop that and you're good to go, so you can throw the newly fixed NOS's in the high slots.



Good luck with doing missions on Vargur with that range when standing still...
Vargur is now the worst marauder, slow like hell when hee need to move because of falloff, bastion range is stacking penalized so another stick in the eye...


Tracking computer range is already penalized and I already have great success with it at that range, so no luck needed. I get the feeling that was sarcasm and not a true wish for good luck though, so I'm glad I can think outside the box.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-10-09 04:11:56 UTC
Flew all 3 except the Pally(t1 lazors). I had a 14mil tick in a Serp Blockade in a Cruise Golem. That's all.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#37 - 2013-10-09 06:09:35 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Flew all 3 except the Pally(t1 lazors). I had a 14mil tick in a Serp Blockade in a Cruise Golem. That's all.


So while you seem to be snubbing that it really comes down to one thing for me, how well will the salvage deployable work? Because if any ship can use that as efficiently as a marauder can loot and salvage then WTF is the point? Mach gets better ISK per hour than that. As it stands, thats damn good ISK per hour if you were salvaging and pulled in another 10M in your cargo bay. That's 75M an hour before LP and rewards, so currently more than a pirate faction BS solo.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Miasmos
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-10-09 20:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Miasmos
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Regarding pulses vs beams:
[Paladin, Pulses]

Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster I
Large Energy Collision Accelerator II


The utility of pulse paladin comes from using Conflagration and IN Gamma L. In most circumstances you can blap away close by stuff fast upon landing, using scorch only for moving around and sniping at far distances. In bastion mode, Gamma deals 1k dps on a correct fit (very very close to tachyon dps at 50km). Conflagration deals 1228dps on the same fit iirc. The scorch is left behind at 875dps to 90-ish.

Correct fit: burst aerator II stacking power with 4 faction heat sinks. Use Conflagration for short range (sub 30km) carnage, IN Gamma as standard crystal (50km), scorch for ultra long range. Damage control II + EANM in the tank to make it more expensive to gank, as it is it's overtanked for the mission purposes. Microjump is a very specific case propmod, not really for a L4 pally.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#39 - 2013-10-09 20:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Miasmos, you don't use one set of crystals in a PvE Paladin, you change according to the range your enemies are at. The fact that the fit shows scorch does not mean that you use only that. And the fact that you do more DPS with close range ammo does not mean that you finish a mission faster. The main advantage that the new bastion module gives is that you can hit the whole/a bigger part of the room at once. A lot of ppl underestimate the time you need to actually target, get in range and clear the whole room, especially in missions where the spawns are not closely packed. And thats the main reason that MJD+Beams will work better for a Paladin when Rubicon hits, as shown in the graphs above.

Your "corrections" btw actually make the fit suboptimal.

1. A fourth HS is unneeded both fitting wise and for cost/effect purposes due to heavy stacking of damage mods (4DPS extra with conflag).
2. The Aerator is also suboptimal if you are acquainted with the number of salvos needed to pop many NPCs. EFT DPS does not equal in-game DPS, especially when you lose salvoes with scorch and gamma against some popular BSs and elite Cruisers making the 0.2 faster RoF (1more salvo in 20) suboptimal.
3. I can understand the DC+EANM combo, but you are still a juicy killmail. It won't avert a gank, the difference in DPS needed is 1 Tornado/Talos or a couple catas. A difference that will not stop anyone from blaping a 1bil hull if he wants it (and its not like you are in a belt among weaker tanked ships for the ganker to choose a different target).
4. Lastly, using a marauder without utilizing the new MJD bonus with the bastion module is an exercise in futility. You are trying to use the Paladin the same way you did before Rubicon, thus hurting your isk/hr. You get in, MJD once to the middle and then proceed to bastion.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#40 - 2013-10-09 21:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Finished multiple hours of test drive on each marauder.

Overall, except of the paladin every single one gets worse at L4(it you flown them already with mwd and 2-3 slot tank). The only reason why the paladin gets better is the way a double optimal bonus works with lasers(73.5+50km with multi and 110+50km with x-rax) and that you don't need to move much in most missions in amarr space.

The Kronos does to little dps with rails and without sentry's, it is horrible as stop and go blaster ship compared to my Vindi. The Vargur also is horrible as stop and go auto cannon ship compared to my armor mach(leave alone that it loses 320m/s top speed and is nearly 600m/s slower than the mach now), it would need a optimal bonus for artis, since you run into dps issues at higher ranges. The golem is pretty much pointless with the current mwd + torps setup, because it gets ridiculous slow. For CMs the changes improve nothing at all(if you didn't over tank it).

As for the Paladin fitting, this is how I flown it, for Blockade you need a extra EANM, for Guristas assault a extra Kin Hardener, the rest of the amarr missions can be flow with this setup(I want my sentry's back CCP, instead of the comedy tank for bads). X

[Paladin, overtanked]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination Target Painter

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


Curator II x1
Hobgoblin II x4
Hobgoblin II x1


I still think that bastion and mjd is just a comedy idea, what actually does ruin the marauders in a lot of her niches(like Incs, WH, rail Kronos, ammo effective Vargur and torp golem), without adding anything important in return.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Previous page123Next page