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Two EASY fixes to Black Ops CCP can do in 5 minutes to make this class useful
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Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-10-03 22:29:21 UTC
Alex Logan wrote:
I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.

Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.

As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.

Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.

Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat.


There is a whole lot more to Black Ops than what you are seeing in your EFT. First and Foremost, they can cyno right past your fore mentioned gate camp. Going from point "A" to "C" and skipping point "B" all together. Something that a maelstrom or abaddon cannot do.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-10-04 07:20:25 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
Alex Logan wrote:
I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.

Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.

As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.

Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.

Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat.


There is a whole lot more to Black Ops than what you are seeing in your EFT. First and Foremost, they can cyno right past your fore mentioned gate camp. Going from point "A" to "C" and skipping point "B" all together. Something that a maelstrom or abaddon cannot do.


Issue being God help something can shoot back at them.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-10-04 07:22:51 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
With the new cyno jammers coming up blops will be used for PI. Dust collection to be precise.


Convert cynos and jump portals work through jammers.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#24 - 2013-10-04 12:38:38 UTC
Mak them be able to fit cov op cloak Pirate

Or maybe thats for another class of T2 battleship to be able to do Idea
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-10-05 04:29:23 UTC
The new SoE super covop cruiser is also going to make that bridging a much larger power projection asset. Add the mobile jammers so titan drops and supers can't be as mobile. Now you have a case where the blop drop is far away more flexible than your titan.

Given the proven strength of siege fleet. Now add a real combat cruiser that allows T3s and recons back into support roles. And all you need is a covop logi to make blops an amazing tool for small units to project real power. Titans need not apply.

No more point in making the blops a solo power house than there is for the titan and for similar reasons. Its a bridge. That is it's job.
Baudolino
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-05 09:21:01 UTC
while we're at it, just make it so that the blops bridges the firepower of your fleet. That way you can be 100% sure you dont loose anything, and that your 3948844dps actually hit that poor CNR you've been baiting for 8 weeks.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-10-05 21:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.

Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:

Proteus:

Sig of a cruiser
Speed of a cruiser
Lock of a cruiser
100k EHP
Cov Ops
Nullifier
Very long point.
700 dps cold
6 sec align

Widow
Sig of a BS
Speed of a BS
Terrible lock time
33k EHP (ECM fit)
Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min)
No Nullifier
1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters)
9 sec align time

We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.

My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mister Tuggles
Dickhead Corner
Amarr Shithole
#28 - 2013-10-06 12:39:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.

Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:

Proteus:

Sig of a cruiser
Speed of a cruiser
Lock of a cruiser
100k EHP
Cov Ops
Nullifier
Very long point.
700 dps cold
6 sec align

Widow
Sig of a BS
Speed of a BS
Terrible lock time
33k EHP (ECM fit)
Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min)
No Nullifier
1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters)
9 sec align time

We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.

My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed.



I think the thing people are arguing is that Blops are just to be used as bridge devices. IMO that is a **** poor excuse for why they don't get cov-ops cloak. Nullbear tears would accumulate if you could interrupt their plex farming bots with a solo blop.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-10-07 02:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Mister Tuggles wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They would not be overpowered with a covert ops cloak.

Let's take my Proteus vs my Widow:

Proteus:

Sig of a cruiser
Speed of a cruiser
Lock of a cruiser
100k EHP
Cov Ops
Nullifier
Very long point.
700 dps cold
6 sec align

Widow
Sig of a BS
Speed of a BS
Terrible lock time
33k EHP (ECM fit)
Covert Ops (one assumes then they would have the uncloak delay 4.5secs min)
No Nullifier
1000 DPS (however we're talking rage torps and no painters)
9 sec align time

We have to assume in comparisons we're talking solo because if not then the variability of other ships makes any comparison pointless. If you're talking Blops gangs then it doesn't matter if it can warp cloaked because its friends can, it just turns up last or doesn't even jump through.

My main point is that T3s are already superior to a solo blops and they're not overpowered. You likely wont escape alive if you're ratting mining and get jumped by a cloaky T3 but you have a better chance of gtfo from a covert blops if one existed.



I think the thing people are arguing is that Blops are just to be used as bridge devices. IMO that is a **** poor excuse for why they don't get cov-ops cloak. Nullbear tears would accumulate if you could interrupt their plex farming bots with a solo blop.

Yes it really doesn't make sense does it. Ships should have multiple roles. CCP has indicated they want them to have multiple roles and that has led to the tiericides.

I haven't read a logical argument from anyone who have said "they would be overpowered with covert cloak" as to WHY they would be overpowered. The whole idea of a covert ops fleet (with insta uncloak locking and scan res that a bomber gets) and a black ops suddenly appearing in local on top of you seems extremely more overpowered than a solo black ops.

One could argue that fleets of black ops might form and wtfpwn everyone with OP covert cloaking but as already mentioned fleets of covert bombers and covert T3s are much more mobile, faster locking, have more dps, damage application and EHP either through sig tanking or huge buffer tanks.

The argument against BLOPS covert cloaking is absurd and I believe stems from a desire to keep the ship solely to their own play style and an unfounded fear that it would lead to less safety for the same people when they're not protected in fleet and instead care-bearing in their null systems.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Julius Priscus
#30 - 2013-10-07 03:00:09 UTC
Alex Logan wrote:
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.


a jump fuel bay yes...

Alex Logan wrote:
2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.


covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc.

Alex Logan wrote:
You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.


imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-10-07 06:43:04 UTC
Julius Priscus wrote:
Alex Logan wrote:
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.


a jump fuel bay yes...

Alex Logan wrote:
2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.


covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc.

Alex Logan wrote:
You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.


imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.


Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore.

Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up.

If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch.

If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-10-07 07:08:25 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Julius Priscus wrote:
Alex Logan wrote:
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.


a jump fuel bay yes...

Alex Logan wrote:
2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.


covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc.

Alex Logan wrote:
You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.


imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.


Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore.

Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up.

If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch.

If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus.


Bombers don't have a lock delay either, even then you still have battleship scan res to deal with.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-10-07 08:14:42 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Julius Priscus wrote:
Alex Logan wrote:
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.


a jump fuel bay yes...

Alex Logan wrote:
2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.


covert ops cloak yes... speed mod while cloaked no.. just make them like the other stealth ships... recons etc.

Alex Logan wrote:
You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.


imo they should be like bs versions of the recons.


Fuel bay I can definately see. The covert cloak I'm not as sure about anymore.

Reason: The "need to keep up with the crew..." in system... Isn't rubicon changing how ships warp so smaller/faster warp/land faster? That means even current mixed covert gangs, that come in at range, are liable to have issues staying formed up.

If it's radical enough - the cloak can go but that fuel bay... That's a big issue. Dragging along a blockade runner for fueling. Ouch.

If people do insist on covert cloaks I'd say also remove the instant lock when it comes off. Make them work more like recon's than bombers - AND- remove that speed bonus.

If they did get covert cloak I'd say it would be reasonable to add the usual 5 sec delay minimum since they wouldn't have the scan res penalty of a regular cloak anymore.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-10-07 10:45:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:
... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.


.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun.



This.
If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck.

The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#35 - 2013-10-07 13:28:46 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
... blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.


.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun.



This.
If the reward (jump drive) was at the level of all drawbacks could make things a bit more interesting, but with such poor range it becomes quickly annoying on top of the mandatory fuel truck.

The case you just explained (B-D or 4EP) is one of those moments you hate yourself for having a blops.


seriously you're complaining after they gave you titan bridging ranges? Then you complain about needing a fuel truck? I personally do not want to see blopsing get so easy everyone does it.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#36 - 2013-10-08 19:36:47 UTC
If you have the means to have a blops fleet, adding a blockade runner is not that hard.

The ships are plenty useful without a covops cloak. Both as pure bridging and support ships, and as actual combat ships when needed. That they are weaker in a straight brawl than a combat battleship is irrelevant.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-10-09 02:17:05 UTC
Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.

Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.

However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.

Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role.
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-10-09 23:09:14 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Making the blops more of a recon/support role I could get behind. And I am willing to admit I am being 'somewhat' convinced for the covop cloak. Under the provision that it still gets the lock time delay as stated above and loses the speed while cloaked.

Perhaps make them all more like the widow. Drop damage/weps for racial ecm type. Or maybe do that for amarr and then give a logi type bonus for the gal/min types. Adding even more of the desired use and diversity to the blOps support role.

However, it is my thinking that most of these threads don't really want a useful blops. They want that cloak bs that no one can catch or stop that can move with complete impunity to any system, then run down a battleship while they stay cloaked, uncloak and instant scram said target, and finally destroy them before anyone can react. To which, I and presumably others are opposed. The new SoE cruiser is going to completely change the blops gang meta as is. Add this solo cloaky easy mode killer and I worry at the ramifications.

Also as a small point for 'diversity' it was my understanding that the T1 teiracide is/was for expanding their roles but T2 ships are supposed to be focused and of limited role.


I'm guessing that you are not aware that Recon ships are not only specifically designed with Electronic warefare as their main offensive ability, they are also able to be bridged with a Black-Ops.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-10-09 23:38:23 UTC
This is somewhat my point. If the balance to the covop mobility is the reduced 'gank' AND people want a role for the blops beyond 'just' the jump portal it needs to be something other than a DPS bonus. So, given the widow already has ewar bonus then the precedent exists.

Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull. Also I might point out that there is already a logistics gap between cruiser and carrier, but that is secondary.

However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#40 - 2013-10-10 01:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
Froggy Storm wrote:
Otherwise the only thing missing from a 'fleet comp' around black ops is a logistics hull.


Which is why sometimes people fit RR on BOPS, to facilitate some more staying power. I dunno if a dedicated covert ops RR ship would be too strong.


Froggy Storm wrote:
However, the fact remains that if the people who start these posts were more honest they want a solo pwn mobile that can move with impunity. Stalk and catch any target and then put up 1200+ DPS. But saying it that way makes it too clearly op.


Yeah they want a cloaky warping Battleship with Battleship dps. Completely ignoring the other benefits of Black Ops ships. Namely the covert jump drive and covert bridge. I think Black Ops are actually a very good example of the need to play together with other people in this game. You just don't gank someone solo in them (unless it is really a squishy thing). You need friends to do it, call it blobbing or whatever, but you also put some serious isk on the line.

Maybe the 'confusion' comes with the progression line. You have Covops, then Recons, which both warp cloaked. Next is Black Ops, which don't warp cloaked. I think many people are like 'hey wait i trained this line because i like cloaky and now in a Battleship i cannot do that, wtf'. While it seems on first glance that Black Ops would be a direct progession from aforementioned classes, they are not - if you only look at the cloaky ability. They do however play nicely with those other classes, as they facilitate the jumping ability for cloakies. Which, being covert has some nice advantages. People seem to copletely ignore this aspect.

I do not know if i would like covert ops warping black ops to be honest. They do what they do quite okay imo. Maybe a better jump range would be beneficient, as would a bigger fuel bay (lets face it if you want to do some jumps and on top of that bridge some people, you need a hauler along). But then again 'power projection' is a thing that can argue against this.

[edit] To expand on this: There is currently only one other ship class that can 'bridge' other ships across space. Titans. Black Ops do the same, but with the limitation of only allowing 'covert' ships. This, in my opinion, is quite a huge asset for Black Ops. If you have been covert dropped by a bomber/recon/t3 gang before, i am sure you can agree. Black Ops can be 'frontline' ships, if you are confident of the engagement scale.[/edit]
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