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Missile Acceleration Mechanics
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Modestro
Dark Whisper Corp
#1 - 2013-10-05 01:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Modestro
Tl;dr: Decrease time-to-target for missiles; no other attributes beyond velocity and acceleration effected.

Looking at the warp acceleration/deceleration changes in Rubicon I thought about one of my peeves with missile use: time to target. This delay brings with it salvo counting, and the nagging question of why missiles stop accelerating in the absence of any resistance. I know this is consistent in the Eve universe with ships, but in the case of missiles is there any reason we can't have this changed?

My current experience (50/10Mb, near Chicago):
Heavy Missile launcher is activated. After 2-3 seconds missiles can be observed leaving the ship (the weapon progress bar as a rule is past the 12 o'clock position for me), accelerate for a second or two, then finish their flight at a constant speed to reach the target. Killing targets anywhere from 20-30km and beyond will result in wasted salvos unless baby-sitting F1.

Goal: Get light and heavy missiles to target faster than their launcher cycle time, at a range of up to 50-75km.

Implementation:
1. Increase missile velocity, possibly maintain acceleration to the end of range. Base acceleration behavior on missile mass? (Rockets > Lights > Rapid Lights > Heavies > Heavy Assaults > Cruise > Torpedo)
2. Get missiles out of the launcher and flying to targets sooner in the launch cycle.

Concerns:
Come from you. I do some PvE, but don't have experience that tells me what such a change would mean for PvP. My understanding is that long-range missile use is sub par. Does this change make missiles viable without going overboard? I'm spit-balling it here... add your thoughts and ideas.
Zachev Trace
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-10-05 01:38:50 UTC
This is the main reason why heavies and cruise missiles are still not used in major fleet fights. They have the damage, but by the time it takes to get to the target to take advantage of their alpha (or at least the cruise's alpha). The target has already broadcasted for reps and is locked by logi's.

Long story short, missile (pvp) combat past 100km is not viable in my opinion due to the delayed damage. Not to mention you'd have very little holding enemy fleets down, and you'd be letting them warp off before missiles even reach them.

As for how to change this to be more effective, I can't say I have an idea that solves all of the problems, but not limiting max velocity is a step in the right direction.
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#3 - 2013-10-05 05:07:18 UTC
First and foremost missile mechanics should indeed allow acceleration indefinitely as long as fuel allows, however this creates a secondary issue or rather highlights an issue already present yet rarely thought about more clearly, missile target 'tracking'.

A missile actually tracks a target and when it travels, at say 40km/s the ability to control the missile diminishes significantly in relative terms to that targets ability to avoid it, this means missiles could actually be made to reliably 'miss', today they can sometimes 'miss'(be outrun) if your target is insanely fast but hardly ever avoided.
The possibility to 'miss' would be far greater at long ranges(accumulated high velocity) against small fast targets after this change, this time not because the craft was running away from the missile but simply because it moved from its path just like you would avoid a gun volley, the missile would just fly past it and possibly never be able to turn around before it ran out of fuel.

Missiles will still hit quite easily if the velocity hasn't accumulated enough to keep it from re-orienting quickly.

Results:
  • We get a similar effect as we have with long range guns and poor tracking.
  • We get missiles viable at long ranges.
  • We get missiles with poor 'tracking' at long ranges.
  • We get missiles with good 'tracking' at shorter ranges.
  • Flight time becomes more relevant as well in terms of re-try possibility for missiles to hit a 'missed' target.
  • TE equivalent modules for missiles could grant missile agility, fuel(flight time) and acceleration.


    • This would essentially solve the long range missile issues no doubt and bring alternative weakness in that situation as compensation.

    The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
    Modestro
    Dark Whisper Corp
    #4 - 2013-10-05 23:33:36 UTC
    SOL Ranger wrote:
    First and foremost missile mechanics should indeed allow acceleration indefinitely as long as fuel allows, however this creates a secondary issue or rather highlights an issue already present yet rarely thought about more clearly, missile target 'tracking'.

    A missile actually tracks a target and when it travels, at say 40km/s the ability to control the missile diminishes significantly in relative terms to that targets ability to avoid it, this means missiles could actually be made to reliably 'miss', today they can sometimes 'miss'(be outrun) if your target is insanely fast but hardly ever avoided.
    The possibility to 'miss' would be far greater at long ranges(accumulated high velocity) against small fast targets after this change, this time not because the craft was running away from the missile but simply because it moved from its path just like you would avoid a gun volley, the missile would just fly past it and possibly never be able to turn around before it ran out of fuel.

    Missiles will still hit quite easily if the velocity hasn't accumulated enough to keep it from re-orienting quickly.

    Results:
  • We get a similar effect as we have with long range guns and poor tracking.
  • We get missiles viable at long ranges.
  • We get missiles with poor 'tracking' at long ranges.
  • We get missiles with good 'tracking' at shorter ranges.
  • Flight time becomes more relevant as well in terms of re-try possibility for missiles to hit a 'missed' target.
  • TE equivalent modules for missiles could grant missile agility, fuel(flight time) and acceleration.


    • This would essentially solve the long range missile issues no doubt and bring alternative weakness in that situation as compensation.


    I think that as speed of the missile increases the relative speed of its target decreases, and the ability to evade the missile diminishes. However, if you want to talk missile tracking then they can detonate near a target (if near enough) on misses for partial damage, which opens the door from misses to critical hits the same as gunnery weapons. Not sure if that is a desired mechanic as missiles are currently very consistent sans defender missiles from NPCs, and offer an alternative playstyle.

    Some interesting thoughts, and related, but not precisely on-topic. In my mind time-to-target buffs would be simple(ish) to implement, not change existing game-play mechanics (beyond, you know, velocity/acceleration), and not include new modules.
    Yolo
    Unknown Nation
    #5 - 2013-10-06 06:56:00 UTC
    I would like to see constant acceleration. say a missile does 5km second 1, 10km second 2, 20km second 3, 40 km second 4, 80 km second 5.

    But with a twist to it, the further away the target it, the less fuel remain, meaning that the missile will reduce its damage by 5% per second in flight.

    - since 2003, bitches
    Solhild
    Doomheim
    #6 - 2013-10-06 08:21:00 UTC
    From an RP point of view, missiles should have continued acceleration as they don't have a warp core to drag against subspace.
    Missile based combat would be improved if they were faster but the explosion velocity/radius should be modified by speed. I think this would mean more damage to big stationary targets at the edge of your range but little damage and greater chance to miss fast targets.
    Modestro
    Dark Whisper Corp
    #7 - 2013-10-06 22:46:30 UTC
    Yolo wrote:
    I would like to see constant acceleration. say a missile does 5km second 1, 10km second 2, 20km second 3, 40 km second 4, 80 km second 5.

    But with a twist to it, the further away the target it, the less fuel remain, meaning that the missile will reduce its damage by 5% per second in flight.


    Constanct acceleration is what I'm looking for, but linear as opposed to your example which is parabolic.

    Solhild wrote:
    From an RP point of view, missiles should have continued acceleration as they don't have a warp core to drag against subspace.
    Missile based combat would be improved if they were faster but the explosion velocity/radius should be modified by speed. I think this would mean more damage to big stationary targets at the edge of your range but little damage and greater chance to miss fast targets.


    RP is not ...my focus, but I'm glad this would be consistent. However I disagree with the need to change the damage application as part of my request. Current use of explosion velocity and explosion radius against a target's respective velocity and sig radius already fulfill this purpose well.

    I want to reiterate that my focus is on time-to-target for missiles, no other mechanic changes. Get the missile out of my launcher sooner, and either let them fly faster with the existing acceleration scheme or allow linear acceleration.

    Case in point: I've been playing with HAMs and notice that the launch cycle is 90% complete before the missiles are out. I have to baby-sit F1/F2 to avoid wasting salvos at targets less than 10km away!
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #8 - 2013-10-07 00:48:44 UTC
    Posting to report that my experiences with missiles of all kinds are completely different from OP's. Missiles leave their launchers very soon after activating them.
    Modestro
    Dark Whisper Corp
    #9 - 2013-10-07 13:34:37 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Posting to report that my experiences with missiles of all kinds are completely different from OP's. Missiles leave their launchers very soon after activating them.


    Mind sharing you general geographic location? I'll reiterate that my experience is still:
    1. HML: over half-way through launch cycle before missiles appear (approximately three seconds).
    2. HAM: ~90% through launch cycle before missiles appear (approximately three seconds).

    All other actions (such as navigation commands) on Tranquility enact in 1 second or less, which in my mind is always on the first server 'tick' after the command is issued.

    Regardless, if launcher delays are network latency then the only consistent change of the two ideas is missile acceleration/velocity.