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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#741 - 2013-10-04 02:38:40 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:

Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Why would you care about tank when you have the greatest substitute for tank in the game? Why would you not focus on gank when trying to kill other players before their buddies show up? Unless you are sure you are going to get 1v1 honorable combat (HAH!) then trying to focus on outlasting your opponents borderline suicidal in this ship.

PvE? sure, I posted a fit. There is a link to it right above your post. It has more than enough tank for 6/10s. It could probably do a 7/10 with a little piloting skill. If you aren't minimizing tank in PvE then you aren't maximizing your profits, as that is what PvE is about, no?


Well I'd out fun somewhere in there along with profits, but I get your point.

Yes, it can be used to very successfully gank with very high dps and not much tank, I am not disputing that, but those are extreme fits and the target group are not those players.

You have to understand the mindset of the players this is geared towards. People bent on exploration, some newbies, others not, but all of them getting kind of tired from all those relic sites and craving some combat/ability to do it in one ship without switching. Here's an upgrade for their covops frigs! Naturally they will want to protect the ship and take care of it. None of them will break the 600-ish dps barrier with pve fits.

If someone decided to use this for ganks they will be a minority and a minority that will soon find itself lacking isk after a couple of losses. Just like most pve player will try to keep the ship safe, pvpers will risk it, but having in mind the price.. which group do you think will be more successful in their endeavours?

There won't be an endless swarm of blaster fit Stratioses descending over low/null. It might be one guy here and there and one he loses it a couple of times he will go back to cheaper ships.


This, pretty much, is what I was going for.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#742 - 2013-10-04 02:41:32 UTC
Tragedy wrote:

Its like talking to a coconut. Blaster proteus are one of if not the most popular stealth gank ship right now. They're more expensive, hurt more if you lose one, and wont be as effective as this ship. Tons of people fly them. The only thing the proteus has going for it is more ehp and the nullifier sub. Which you dont fit to most gank fits.

What makes you think there would be a minority of people using this for pvp? Thats ridiculous.

If its good for something people will use it for that. You can say its meant for one thing till you're blue in the face. Ships in this game dont have giant flags saying PVE on them or restrictions saying " YOU CAN ONLY SHOOT RED CROSSES WITH THIS!"

Look outside of your little box and try and think of what effects a ship like this would have on the game. Stop saying its for pve. Its for whatever people wanna use it for.


Blaster Proteuses will have far better damage application than this could ever hope to have. Have fun ganking with that cloak timer delay. In the 10 seconds it will take you to lock that target, you'll already be in half armor.

Blaster Protii have FAR FAR FAR more EHP than this could ever hope to have, either.
Soko Lsi
SASART Corporation
#743 - 2013-10-04 02:41:47 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So basically you have an idea that doesn't correspond to what CCP is offering and you ***** about it, stomping your leg like a child. "No! I want the cartoon to continue!!!"

You have no facts, no logic and cannot respond to even one of my points.

Good day sir o7


Lol.

CCP is offering a ship that, and I quote, can be used for "killing anom runners". Which is precisely what I want to do with it.

Aside from you being butthurt about pvp players, what's wrong with that?

(oh, and I handily refuted all of your points, which is why you resorted to such an obvious diversion and dismissal tactic. It's a fair bet that the first person to do this is the overall loser of the argument. As such, I accept your surrender, being the gracious person that I am.)


Whats wrong is that you're trying to get a ship nerfed on an absurd fit that will never be used by anyone but you, and will result in guaranteed 400m lossmails.

Dehval wrote:

And you don't need 900 dps to run a 6/10. You can complete almost all of them with sub 400 dps. Why do we have to keep defending this ship keeping its insanely high dps?


You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.


Quoted for truth!
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#744 - 2013-10-04 02:42:36 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.

I'm sorry, should I use Gardes?

We are still rocking 800 dps at range using Pulses with scorch + Gardes. I guess you could argue that ships will be farther away than 30km? Well, lets switch it out. Let's use Beams and hit out to 47km with Curators. I guess now we are running into balanced territory with 627 dps. We are still massively over the dps requirement to complete a 6/10 with a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, I also mentioned you could just cheat and not use the analyzers, you are in low-sec and there are bound to be stations everywhere. Give your drones some Navigation computers. The once sub 1k m/s drones are now going at a respectable 1.8k m/s to 2k m/s depending on type. Or if you are a sentry man, you can give your Gardes two omnis and shoot to 45km + 12km, more range than any pre-nullsec combat site will need you to shoot out to, still 800 dps.

This 800-900 range is a real number that can be hit very easily for a standard DED running fit in this ship's current state. It is not something reserved for only hypothetical fits. Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#745 - 2013-10-04 02:43:13 UTC
Alt Of Halcyon wrote:
My take on the

Stratios

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Energy Turret damage
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
5% bonus to Drone hitpoints, optimal, tracking and damage

Slot layout: 4H, 4M, 6L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers (5/5/5 to 4/4/6)
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 400(-100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550



This is well thought out. I like this idea but have a few comments.

Splitting the 10% drone damage to 5% across the board will quell most of the complaints about dps and allow one to actually use Sentry drones (good)

Taking a high slot and moving it to the low slot and reducing turret hardpoints to 2 with a bonus to Laser damage will assure this ship sticks to the "Laser with drones" vision CCP had (good)

Removing the 5th midslot reducing its ability to be used for exploration (bad)

Reducing the drone bay fixes none of the complaints and reduces the time this ship can stay out exploring (bad)

So lets go with your plan, but keep the 5th mid slot and 500 drone bay.

This is the kind of posts that help move discussions forward. Good on ya!
Soko Lsi
SASART Corporation
#746 - 2013-10-04 02:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Soko Lsi
Dehval wrote:
Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


I doubt anyone will switch from DED carebear to a ganker and yell "my life has changed" in such a way that you imply.

Having high sp characters get better performance sounds absolutely normal (and those people are usually set in their way and won't suddenly switch to being pirates). The calcs you show are impossible for new players.
Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2013-10-04 02:51:30 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:

Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Why would you care about tank when you have the greatest substitute for tank in the game? Why would you not focus on gank when trying to kill other players before their buddies show up? Unless you are sure you are going to get 1v1 honorable combat (HAH!) then trying to focus on outlasting your opponents borderline suicidal in this ship.

PvE? sure, I posted a fit. There is a link to it right above your post. It has more than enough tank for 6/10s. It could probably do a 7/10 with a little piloting skill. If you aren't minimizing tank in PvE then you aren't maximizing your profits, as that is what PvE is about, no?


Well I'd out fun somewhere in there along with profits, but I get your point.

Yes, it can be used to very successfully gank with very high dps and not much tank, I am not disputing that, but those are extreme fits and the target group are not those players.
You have to understand the mindset of the players this is geared towards. People bent on exploration, some newbies, others not, but all of them getting kind of tired from all those relic sites and craving some combat/ability to do it in one ship without switching. Here's an upgrade for their covops frigs! Naturally they will want to protect the ship and take care of it. None of them will break the 600-ish dps barrier with pve fits.

If someone decided to use this for ganks they will be a minority and a minority that will soon find itself lacking isk after a couple of losses. Just like most pve player will try to keep the ship safe, pvpers will risk it, but having in mind the price.. which group do you think will be more successful in their endeavours?

There won't be an endless swarm of blaster fit Stratioses descending over low/null. It might be one guy here and there and one he loses it a couple of times he will go back to cheaper ships.

Its like talking to a coconut. Blaster proteus are one of if not the most popular stealth gank ship right now. They're more expensive, hurt more if you lose one, and wont be as effective as this ship. Tons of people fly them. The only thing the proteus has going for it is more ehp and the nullifier sub. Which you dont fit to most gank fits.

What makes you think there would be a minority of people using this for pvp? Thats ridiculous.

If its good for something people will use it for that. You can say its meant for one thing till you're blue in the face. Ships in this game dont have giant flags saying PVE on them or restrictions saying " YOU CAN ONLY SHOOT RED CROSSES WITH THIS!"

Look outside of your little box and try and think of what effects a ship like this would have on the game. Stop saying its for pve. Its for whatever people wanna use it for.


Because DPS on paper just works, right? The application of DPS between a Proteus and Stratios cannot be compared. They are waaaay too different. Please stop with the fear mongering.

(Ice) Miner for life.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#748 - 2013-10-04 02:55:01 UTC
Soko Lsi wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


I doubt anyone will switch from DED carebear to a ganker and yell "my life has changed" in such a way that you imply.

Having high sp character get better performance sounds absolutely normal (and those people are usually set in their way and won;t suddenly switch to being pirates). The calcs you show are impossible for new players.
But, you need to balance ships around max or near max skills.

You cannot balance ships around low SP players because it would inevitably cause them to become imbalanced as their skills improved. The vast majority of EVE players have near perfect skills and to not balance around that would cause a massive negative shift away from "Everything is pretty viable" to "You need to fly X ship to even compete". Yes, some thought and consideration should go into lower SP players, but this is not a ship for lower SP players. It is a 'pirate' ship that is designed for players who have a significant investment of skills in two racial ship lines and weapons.

If I had a graph with X being strength and Y being SP, you would want all the lines to converge near the end, not expand. As nice as it would be it is not possible to balance everything perfectly from 55k sp to 150m sp due to the sheer complexity of the game.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2013-10-04 02:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Dehval wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.

I'm sorry, should I use Gardes?

We are still rocking 800 dps at range using Pulses with scorch + Gardes. I guess you could argue that ships will be farther away than 30km? Well, lets switch it out. Let's use Beams and hit out to 47km with Curators. I guess now we are running into balanced territory with 627 dps. We are still massively over the dps requirement to complete a 6/10 with a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, I also mentioned you could just cheat and not use the analyzers, you are in low-sec and there are bound to be stations everywhere. Give your drones some Navigation computers. The once sub 1k m/s drones are now going at a respectable 1.8k m/s to 2k m/s depending on type. Or if you are a sentry man, you can give your Gardes two omnis and shoot to 45km + 12km, more range than any pre-nullsec combat site will need you to shoot out to, still 800 dps.

This 800-900 range is a real number that can be hit very easily for a standard DED running fit in this ship's current state. It is not something reserved for only hypothetical fits. Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


My point that there's nothing wrong with effectively doing 600-800 DPS WITH PERFECT SKILLS. If you spend over half a year training drones, of course drones are going to be good!
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#750 - 2013-10-04 02:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Endo Saissore
Dehval wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.

I'm sorry, should I use Gardes?

We are still rocking 800 dps at range using Pulses with scorch + Gardes. I guess you could argue that ships will be farther away than 30km? Well, lets switch it out. Let's use Beams and hit out to 47km with Curators. I guess now we are running into balanced territory with 627 dps. We are still massively over the dps requirement to complete a 6/10 with a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, I also mentioned you could just cheat and not use the analyzers, you are in low-sec and there are bound to be stations everywhere. Give your drones some Navigation computers. The once sub 1k m/s drones are now going at a respectable 1.8k m/s to 2k m/s depending on type. Or if you are a sentry man, you can give your Gardes two omnis and shoot to 45km + 12km, more range than any pre-nullsec combat site will need you to shoot out to, still 800 dps.

This 800-900 range is a real number that can be hit very easily for a standard DED running fit in this ship's current state. It is not something reserved for only hypothetical fits. Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


I can get into that DPS range with a shield fit Myrm at 1/5th of the cost. Why aren't you calling out for a nerf to all shield fit Myrmidons? Are Shield Myrms OP for running DeD sites?

Or better yet lets simulate a Stratios with a Cov Ops Cloak in PvP. Go into Low Sec with a Navy Vexor in the fit you posted (the damage bonuses are the same and you get an extra low slot for tank/damage) and sit in a Medium Outpost. If a ship approaches that you don't want to attack then warp away. If one does approach that you're willing to engage then count to 8 (to simulate decloaking), and then start locking your target. Thats a terrible idea right???

Just because it works in EFT doesn't mean it works in game
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#751 - 2013-10-04 02:58:25 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
Dehval wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.

I'm sorry, should I use Gardes?

We are still rocking 800 dps at range using Pulses with scorch + Gardes. I guess you could argue that ships will be farther away than 30km? Well, lets switch it out. Let's use Beams and hit out to 47km with Curators. I guess now we are running into balanced territory with 627 dps. We are still massively over the dps requirement to complete a 6/10 with a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, I also mentioned you could just cheat and not use the analyzers, you are in low-sec and there are bound to be stations everywhere. Give your drones some Navigation computers. The once sub 1k m/s drones are now going at a respectable 1.8k m/s to 2k m/s depending on type. Or if you are a sentry man, you can give your Gardes two omnis and shoot to 45km + 12km, more range than any pre-nullsec combat site will need you to shoot out to, still 800 dps.

This 800-900 range is a real number that can be hit very easily for a standard DED running fit in this ship's current state. It is not something reserved for only hypothetical fits. Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


I can get into that DPS range with a shield fit Myrm. Why aren't you calling out for a nerf to all shield fit Myrmidons? Are Shield Myrms OP for running DeD sites?

Or better yet lets simulate a Stratios with a Cov Ops Cloak in PvP. Go into Low Sec with a Navy Vexor in the fit you posted (the damage bonuses are the same and you get an extra low slot for tank/damage) and sit in a Medium Outpost. If a ship approaches that you don't want to attack then warp away. If one does approach that you're willing to engage then count to 8 (to simulate decloaking), and then start locking your target. Thats a terrible idea right???

Just because it works in EFT doesn't mean it works in game


This, just this.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#752 - 2013-10-04 02:59:07 UTC
So will these ships be capable of using covert jump bridges?
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#753 - 2013-10-04 02:59:30 UTC
Whether the ship is designed for PVE or PVP is completely irrelevant. If they gave us a BC sized mining barge (as PVE as it gets in this game) with 7 turrets and covops cloak for null mining it would be used across the galaxy for ganking far more than mining. What they categorize it as is completely irrelevant to whether or not it is balanced in the meta of the game.

All that being said the issue here is that in order to fulfill its role as an exploration ship in hostile space it need the cloak and it needs high DPS to do the DED sites and such. The problem highlighted by a lot of the fits posted is the surprise gank potential.

So, what if the hull has a penalty to drone launch time after the covops cloak disengages? Say around 10 - 15 seconds. If you are doing PVE this shouldn't affect you as you just need to decloak before engaging. Or possibly it has double to triple the target delay of the covops cloak (i.e. 10 to 15 secs). This stops the surprise tackle and engage maneuvers. It could almost be worth slapping the extra delay directly onto the covops cloak. The stealth bombers ignore it anyway. Recons may or may not need to be able to ignore it (I haven't used them enough to make a call myself). While this would nerf the covops Proteus there is a small group of people who would think that a bad thing.
Soko Lsi
SASART Corporation
#754 - 2013-10-04 03:02:04 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Soko Lsi wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Most will probably over tank the thing when they first get it out of fear of losing it. I give that mentality about two weeks before people realize it doesn't take much to get by in a 6/10 and they switch to the gank oriented fits.


I doubt anyone will switch from DED carebear to a ganker and yell "my life has changed" in such a way that you imply.

Having high sp character get better performance sounds absolutely normal (and those people are usually set in their way and won;t suddenly switch to being pirates). The calcs you show are impossible for new players.
But, you need to balance ships around max or near max skills.

You cannot balance ships around low SP players because it would inevitably cause them to become imbalanced as their skills improved. The vast majority of EVE players have near perfect skills and to not balance around that would cause a massive negative shift away from "Everything is pretty viable" to "You need to fly X ship to even compete". Yes, some thought and consideration should go into lower SP players, but this is not a ship for lower SP players. It is a 'pirate' ship that is designed for players who have a significant investment of skills in two racial ship lines and weapons.

If I had a graph with X being strength and Y being SP, you would want all the lines to converge near the end, not expand. As nice as it would be it is not possible to balance everything perfectly from 55k sp to 150m sp due to the sheer complexity of the game.


Hey if you spend years training, you need to get better performance otherwise what's the point? As I see it none of the things you are worried about will be viable in game, as shown by the fella above me and his Navy Vex comparison.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#755 - 2013-10-04 03:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Endo Saissore wrote:
I can get into that DPS range with a shield fit Myrm. Why aren't you calling out for a nerf to all shield fit Myrmidons? Are Shield Myrms OP for running DeD sites?

Or better yet lets simulate a Stratios with a Cov Ops Cloak in PvP. Go into Low Sec with a Navy Vexor in the fit you posted (the damage bonuses are the same and you get an extra low slot for tank/damage) and sit in a Medium Outpost. If a ship approaches that you don't want to attack then warp away. If one does approach that you're willing to engage then count to 8 (to simulate decloaking), and then start locking your target. Thats a terrible idea right???

Just because it works in EFT doesn't mean it works in game
Can a Myrm cloak? Why nerf it, people know its coming and can appropriately get out of the way. It also doesn't get the option to not-engage a target should the other party choose to engage it. The dps alone is not the issue, the dps on a covert ship is the problem. I swear you people would defend a cloaky Talos only because it has low EHP.

The ship entering the Medium Outpost knows what I am flying, unless I fit a non-covert cloak and tank my scan res. Assuming that they were too stupid to hit dscan then I would only need to count to 5 (covert cloak only has a 10 second targeting delay, you did train cloaking past 2 right?). Granted that I could decide to fight them while they are mid flight I could "decloak" myself 5 seconds before he even appears on grid and be ready to lock the moment he lands (The opposite is true to an extent if I were the one flying to engage them assuming I knew I was going to land at zero). Unless he has a full off-grid boosting Loki (or Claymores now, I guess), he would not be able to get away as I know of no cruisers that can go faster than 600m/s without a propmod.

Of course, I would never go into combat without first understanding the likelyhood that he is anything but MWD fit. An AB fit ship would most definitely fly faster than me and I would not choose to fight him. But, why would I use the shield gank fit for actual pvp? That is stupid. It is delegated to Ratter ganking, where slow PvE ships will easily be caught and high dps/no EWAR is the name of the game when dealing with rat AI. I'd use the 900 dps Armor fit to kill an ABing cruiser, because 2 webs will most assuredly keep him pinned down. Barring a Dual XL-ASB Tengu entering the field the list of possible targets is long with some more easy than others. So does it accurately simulate the effects of flying a Stratios? To an extent. Can you fly around enemy space almost uninhibited? No. Can you patiently wait until your target makes a mistake? No. While in combat this ship will perform as well (or slightly less) than a Navy Vexor in combat. Out of combat all the way to the point where you press that decloak button this ship is unbeatable.

It all comes down to the ship can choose who it wants to kill. No other ship in its damage range has that luxury. I am going to repeat this again. No other ship in this damage range has the luxury to choose when and when not to fight a target. This is the factor that makes its dps so extreme. I cannot hammer this point enough and it is the singular driving reason why I cannot in any sense of the word call this cruiser balanced. Please stop bringing up non-cloaking ships as if them doing similar dps changes how imbalanced having such high dps + cloak is. CCP has clearly designed ships so that you do not have an amazing solowtfpwnboat that can move around nearly uninhibited with free range target selection. This is the reason they have not, and likely will never, make a true covert ops battleship (Although I could be proven wrong if the 'SoE BS' becomes a thing). Not to say I don't think that it is an interesting niche to fill, but it is not one that needs to be filled so strongly. Even having half of its current dps would still have it remain a strong contender. Heck, if we dropped it to only 2/3 of its current dps it would be in upper end of the "balanced" zone.

I am not sure how I can make this any clearer. It needs to shift back to the "jack of all trades" and less towards "jack of all trades but it does this one thing masterfully".
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#756 - 2013-10-04 04:01:54 UTC
A little off topic, but does this mean we might see SOE drone mods?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#757 - 2013-10-04 04:30:04 UTC
Soko Lsi wrote:
CCP please don't nerf this to hell!!!

You have made a perfect ship, it is not overpowered despite what the EFT warriors come up with. Who would use it like that?

Add some kind of laser bonus to the hull and leave the rest as is. A piece of art.


Everyone always tries to EFT warrior the most battle unready "BUT LOOK WHAT IT CAN DO" fits to try and get CCP to not make things good. I've seen it done all over the tiericide initiative, one of the most flagrant cases being an utterly useless in terms of combat utility Moa that had high-end BC tank, but very, very little else going for it.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#758 - 2013-10-04 04:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Endo Saissore
Dehval wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
I can get into that DPS range with a shield fit Myrm. Why aren't you calling out for a nerf to all shield fit Myrmidons? Are Shield Myrms OP for running DeD sites?

Or better yet lets simulate a Stratios with a Cov Ops Cloak in PvP. Go into Low Sec with a Navy Vexor in the fit you posted (the damage bonuses are the same and you get an extra low slot for tank/damage) and sit in a Medium Outpost. If a ship approaches that you don't want to attack then warp away. If one does approach that you're willing to engage then count to 8 (to simulate decloaking), and then start locking your target. Thats a terrible idea right???

Just because it works in EFT doesn't mean it works in game
Can a Myrm cloak? Why nerf it, people know its coming and can appropriately get out of the way. It also doesn't get the option to not-engage a target should the other party choose to engage it. The dps alone is not the issue, the dps on a covert ship is the problem. I swear you people would defend a cloaky Talos only because it has low EHP.

The ship entering the Medium Outpost knows what I am flying, unless I fit a non-covert cloak and tank my scan res. Assuming that they were too stupid to hit dscan then I would only need to count to 5 (covert cloak only has a 10 second targeting delay, you did train cloaking past 2 right?). Granted that I could decide to fight them while they are mid flight I could "decloak" myself 5 seconds before he even appears on grid and be ready to lock the moment he lands (The opposite is true to an extent if I were the one flying to engage them assuming I knew I was going to land at zero). Unless he has a full off-grid boosting Loki (or Claymores now, I guess), he would not be able to get away as I know of no cruisers that can go faster than 600m/s without a propmod.

Of course, I would never go into combat without first understanding the likelyhood that he is anything but MWD fit. An AB fit ship would most definitely fly faster than me and I would not choose to fight him. But, why would I use the shield gank fit for actual pvp? That is stupid. It is delegated to Ratter ganking, where slow PvE ships will easily be caught and high dps/no EWAR is the name of the game when dealing with rat AI. I'd use the 900 dps Armor fit to kill an ABing cruiser, because 2 webs will most assuredly keep him pinned down. Barring a Dual XL-ASB Tengu entering the field the list of possible targets is long with some more easy than others. So does it accurately simulate the effects of flying a Stratios? To an extent. Can you fly around enemy space almost uninhibited? No. Can you patiently wait until your target makes a mistake? No. While in combat this ship will perform as well (or slightly less) than a Navy Vexor in combat. Out of combat all the way to the point where you press that decloak button this ship is unbeatable.

It all comes down to the ship can choose who it wants to kill. No other ship in its damage range has that luxury. I am going to repeat this again. No other ship in this damage range has the luxury to choose when and when not to fight a target. This is the factor that makes its dps so extreme. I cannot hammer this point enough and it is the singular driving reason why I cannot in any sense of the word call this cruiser balanced. Please stop bringing up non-cloaking ships as if them doing similar dps changes how imbalanced having such high dps + cloak is. CCP has clearly designed ships so that you do not have an amazing solowtfpwnboat that can move around nearly uninhibited with free range target selection. This is the reason they have not, and likely will never, make a true covert ops battleship (Although I could be proven wrong if the 'SoE BS' becomes a thing). Not to say I don't think that it is an interesting niche to fill, but it is not one that needs to be filled so strongly. Even having half of its current dps would still have it remain a strong contender. Heck, if we dropped it to only 2/3 of its current dps it would be in upper end of the "balanced" zone.

I am not sure how I can make this any clearer. It needs to shift back to the "jack of all trades" and less towards "jack of all trades but it does this one thing masterfully".


The Myrm comment was to counter your complaint that 800-900 DPS was too high to run DeD sites. That is all.

I understand that you have a fear that such a high DPS with a cov-ops cloak is over-powered. But you are forgetting a lot of ships in the game.

Stealth Bombers and Black Ops Battleships have the luxury of deciding what to engage and what not to engage. And when they do engage they hit really hard. The Stratios is a step up from a Stealth Bomber, and a step below a Black Ops Battleship. Its a stepping stone between the two ships. So now if you want to specialize in Cov-Ops you don't have to sit in a SB for a year.

To get BattleCruiser-Battleship DPS the Stratios will have low-average tank with a Cov-Ops Cloak. A Proteus has a BattleShips Tank with low-average DPS and a Cov-Ops cloak. Its the inverse but relative. Sure you can't gank as quickly, but then again ganking is a very specific style of gameplay. Would you try and gank a Dominix running anoms in a Stratios? Probably not. I would only target Cruisers and lower. Maybe a battlecruiser, but not every battlecruiser will be gankable. And I would hope if I'm spending 400mill on hull, plus faction gear like your fit, that I could blow certain ships away.

Does the Stratios blow all tech 1 cruisers out of the water? Yes. Does the Stratios have an upper hand against Navy Cruisers? Yes.

Does the Dramiel blow all tech 1 frigates out of the water? Yes. Does the Dramiel have an upper hand against Navy Frigates? Yes.

This isn't a cheap ship designed for everyone to fly. Its a great ship for a great price. Risk = Reward.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#759 - 2013-10-04 04:36:42 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Soko Lsi wrote:
CCP please don't nerf this to hell!!!

You have made a perfect ship, it is not overpowered despite what the EFT warriors come up with. Who would use it like that?

Add some kind of laser bonus to the hull and leave the rest as is. A piece of art.


Everyone always tries to EFT warrior the most battle unready "BUT LOOK WHAT IT CAN DO" fits to try and get CCP to not make things good. I've seen it done all over the tiericide initiative, one of the most flagrant cases being an utterly useless in terms of combat utility Moa that had high-end BC tank, but very, very little else going for it.

Yeah, it has happened since the first frigate balance pass, and has continued all throughout. But every now and then someone manages to create a OP setup within the realms of the ships intended purpose. As a Covert, Solo, Exploitation Drone ship it ok.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#760 - 2013-10-04 04:41:57 UTC
Dehval you also misunderstood my purpose of counting to 8 or 5 or whichever. While you are waiting to for your decloak to wear off in the Cov-Ops ship, your enemy can be trying to warp out or start locking you to apply damage. Its a small window, but with low EHP in your gank fit it is something to consider.