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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2013-10-04 01:42:10 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dehval wrote:
]Pretty sure this thing caps out at 1150 PG with skills (920*1.25 = 1150). You'd need to downsize two of those neuts to get it to fit.

Gets 46,651 EHP with that fit, (A DC over EANM would up that to 49.5k).


That's what the ACR II is for. 1150 * 1.15 = 1322.5.

Quote:
700 DPS is just fine, it's common for any droneboat (Vexor? Vexor Navy? Ishtar?).

Keep in mind, a lot of other buffs are coming along the way too - along with recon cruiser rebalances.


Vexor and Ishtar don't have covops cloaks *headdesk* *facepalm*


Tragedy wrote:
None of those ships can use a covert cloak and land on top of their target to drop their heavies.


Vexor is a t1 ship not special in any way (still love you Vex) unlike the faction Stratios. Ishtar has other things going for it (hint, resists among others).

Also, they have different roles. Why can't you see that?
Why cant you see theres more to this game than pve? This is Everyone Vs Everyone. EVE. If theres a way to use something for pvp, then its for pvp. Theres no such thing as roles. For years people used the ishtar and domi as neut ships with drones. Neuts werent their role, thats just what worked best with those ships. This ship will be used as a cloaky gank ship. Thats what it will be best at, and it'll be DAMN good at that. Too good.

You can call it a pve ship all you want. I'll start calling megathrons pve ships. Obviously everyones gonna stop using them in fleet doctrines because hey... they're a pve ship.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#722 - 2013-10-04 01:42:18 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Most agree with you that it's somewhat OP, though it appears that we don't all agree to what degree. Even some people citing your posted fits just think it needs a CPU nerf. So I wouldn't say it's quite so obvious that it can't go live in "anything remotely resembling its current state."

I'll admit I was exaggerating. But, trying to hold a constructive argument with Nyan (and that Eko guy?) frustrating on its own and it got to me, ya know?

What I really see that is the problem with this ship is the drones. Most everyone is ***** footing around that one particular aspect of the ship and not touching it, rather looking at trying to change the other bonuses on the ship or its fitting layout. Too much of its strength is compressed into that one singular area and you will never get a balanced ship until you change it. Or nerf every other aspect to the ground to compensate which would likely destroy this as an all purpose explorer. The excessive bay is fine, it fits the idea of a long deployment ship with lots of spares. The damage bonus/bandwidth combo is not fine for a covert ship because the cloak is such an amazing force multiplier that not balancing the ship around it is inane.



You were trying to hold a constructive argument. They weren't. Nyan is endlessly reposting and upvoting anyone who agrees, and Eko is arguing a contradiction in terms.

I do agree that the drones are the problem. Perhaps cut their bonus to 5%, and spread the other 5% to tracking and flight speed? Still keep it a drone ship, but with a bit less overwhelming outright dps. Thoughts? I cannot say that I want to have the bandwidth nerfed, it would be nice to fly a full set of heavies or sentries in a ship that isn't a bulbous, unwieldy battleship.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#723 - 2013-10-04 01:43:13 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Most agree with you that it's somewhat OP, though it appears that we don't all agree to what degree. Even some people citing your posted fits just think it needs a CPU nerf. So I wouldn't say it's quite so obvious that it can't go live in "anything remotely resembling its current state."

I'll admit I was exaggerating. But, trying to hold a constructive argument with Nyan (and that Eko guy?) frustrating on its own and it got to me, ya know?

What I really see that is the problem with this ship is the drones. Most everyone is ***** footing around that one particular aspect of the ship and not touching it, rather looking at trying to change the other bonuses on the ship or its fitting layout. Too much of its strength is compressed into that one singular area and you will never get a balanced ship until you change it. Or nerf every other aspect to the ground to compensate which would likely destroy this as an all purpose explorer. The excessive bay is fine, it fits the idea of a long deployment ship with lots of spares. The damage bonus/bandwidth combo is not fine for a covert ship because the cloak is such an amazing force multiplier that not balancing the ship around it is inane.




You realize the only reason this can effectively run 6 of 10s is 5 bonused sentry drones?

The whole point of this ship is DRONES. Ishtar is drones, Vexor and Vexor Navy are drones, and those deal much more DPS than this. I don't see the problem here.


And you don't need 900 dps to run a 6/10. You can complete almost all of them with sub 400 dps. Why do we have to keep defending this ship keeping its insanely high dps?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#724 - 2013-10-04 01:45:44 UTC
Quote:
So basically you have an idea that doesn't correspond to what CCP is offering and you ***** about it, stomping your leg like a child. "No! I want the cartoon to continue!!!"

You have no facts, no logic and cannot respond to even one of my points.

Good day sir o7


Lol.

CCP is offering a ship that, and I quote, can be used for "killing anom runners". Which is precisely what I want to do with it.

Aside from you being butthurt about pvp players, what's wrong with that?

(oh, and I handily refuted all of your points, which is why you resorted to such an obvious diversion and dismissal tactic. It's a fair bet that the first person to do this is the overall loser of the argument. As such, I accept your surrender, being the gracious person that I am.)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#725 - 2013-10-04 01:46:48 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Most agree with you that it's somewhat OP, though it appears that we don't all agree to what degree. Even some people citing your posted fits just think it needs a CPU nerf. So I wouldn't say it's quite so obvious that it can't go live in "anything remotely resembling its current state."

I'll admit I was exaggerating. But, trying to hold a constructive argument with Nyan (and that Eko guy?) frustrating on its own and it got to me, ya know?

What I really see that is the problem with this ship is the drones. Most everyone is ***** footing around that one particular aspect of the ship and not touching it, rather looking at trying to change the other bonuses on the ship or its fitting layout. Too much of its strength is compressed into that one singular area and you will never get a balanced ship until you change it. Or nerf every other aspect to the ground to compensate which would likely destroy this as an all purpose explorer. The excessive bay is fine, it fits the idea of a long deployment ship with lots of spares. The damage bonus/bandwidth combo is not fine for a covert ship because the cloak is such an amazing force multiplier that not balancing the ship around it is inane.




You realize the only reason this can effectively run 6 of 10s is 5 bonused sentry drones?

The whole point of this ship is DRONES. Ishtar is drones, Vexor and Vexor Navy are drones, and those deal much more DPS than this. I don't see the problem here.


And you don't need 900 dps to run a 6/10. You can complete almost all of them with sub 400 dps. Why do we have to keep defending this ship keeping its insanely high dps?


And no one in their right mind will fit this for PvE with a 16k EHP tank to get that 900 DPS you mention.

EVERYONE here is putting out max gank fits and then assuming that EVERYONE will suddenly fit all of their 400+ million ISK SoE cruisers with a max gank, 900 DPS fit with less EHP than 2 Punishers.

The reality will be far from it. The people that try to do that will learn quickly; others will be far more reasonable with their fits.
Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#726 - 2013-10-04 01:51:33 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Why cant you see theres more to this game than pve? This is Everyone Vs Everyone. EVE. If theres a way to use something for pvp, then its for pvp. Theres no such thing as roles. For years people used the ishtar and domi as neut ships with drones. Neuts werent their role, thats just what worked best with those ships. This ship will be used as a cloaky gank ship. Thats what it will be best at, and it'll be DAMN good at that. Too good.

You can call it a pve ship all you want. I'll start calling megathrons pve ships. Obviously everyones gonna stop using them in fleet doctrines because hey... they're a pve ship.


So by your logic if it does pve it is a pve ship? S ee what I did there. No one looks at this objectively. Both Pvpers and PvErs are sitting on their side of the fence and defending their sides.

As I said several times: it's a combat exploration pve ship, just as it was intended to be by CCP, but if people want to use it for pvp then great! Let them lose 400mil ships left and right. A small minority will use it for pvp, most will use it for exsploration and DeDs. I don;t have a problem with nay of this.

(Ice) Miner for life.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#727 - 2013-10-04 01:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
And no one in their right mind will fit this for PvE with a 16k EHP tank to get that 900 DPS you mention.

EVERYONE here is putting out max gank fits and then assuming that EVERYONE will suddenly fit all of their 400+ million ISK SoE cruisers with a max gank, 900 DPS fit with less EHP than 2 Punishers.

The reality will be far from it. The people that try to do that will learn quickly; others will be far more reasonable with their fits.

Max gank is somewhere in area of 1100 dps.

800 dps can be easily obtained with 4 unbonused pulse lasers and 2 DDAs, 900 if you use Blasters in Null. Here, I even made a fit last night.

It's pretty good. If you want to drop the analyzers you can fit more cap rechargers and throw on a nanobot accelerator to up the tank even more.

The ship does not have to try hard at all to get these ridiculous numbers. Noone gives a damn about EHP in PvE. If you care about EHP in PvE you are playing the wrong game.
Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2013-10-04 01:55:32 UTC
Dehval wrote:

And you don't need 900 dps to run a 6/10. You can complete almost all of them with sub 400 dps. Why do we have to keep defending this ship keeping its insanely high dps?


Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So basically you have an idea that doesn't correspond to what CCP is offering and you ***** about it, stomping your leg like a child. "No! I want the cartoon to continue!!!"

You have no facts, no logic and cannot respond to even one of my points.

Good day sir o7


Lol.

CCP is offering a ship that, and I quote, can be used for "killing anom runners". Which is precisely what I want to do with it.

Aside from you being butthurt about pvp players, what's wrong with that?

(oh, and I handily refuted all of your points, which is why you resorted to such an obvious diversion and dismissal tactic. It's a fair bet that the first person to do this is the overall loser of the argument. As such, I accept your surrender, being the gracious person that I am.)


Go a couple pages back, you did it first. Concession accepted :)

(Ice) Miner for life.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#729 - 2013-10-04 02:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Dehval wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
And no one in their right mind will fit this for PvE with a 16k EHP tank to get that 900 DPS you mention.

EVERYONE here is putting out max gank fits and then assuming that EVERYONE will suddenly fit all of their 400+ million ISK SoE cruisers with a max gank, 900 DPS fit with less EHP than 2 Punishers.

The reality will be far from it. The people that try to do that will learn quickly; others will be far more reasonable with their fits.

Max gank is somewhere in area of 1100 dps.

800 dps can be easily obtained with 4 unbonused pulse lasers and 2 DDAs, 900 if you use Blasters in Null. Here, I even made a fit last night.

It's pretty good. If you want to drop the analyzers you can fit more cap rechargers and throw on a nanobot accelerator to up the tank even more.

The ship does not have to try hard at all to get these ridiculous numbers. Noone gives a damn about EHP in PvE. If you care about EHP in PvE you are playing the wrong game.


The fit you posted is what CCP intends the ship to be like (nice fit, btw!)

Those DPS numbers are difficult to get for any pilot that does not have max drone skills. It might not be difficult for the ship to get those numbers, but it will sure as hell be for the pilot.

CCP seems to have intended this ship as an entry-level Pirate faction cruiser - an entry point into lowsec and nullsec. Without perfect skills, it performs decently - in the 600 DPS range for the fit above. The ship does, however, reward perfect skills with good output and versatility.

I think this is what CCP is going for, and I agree with them on this. Higher SP should be rewarded instead of lower SP pilots getting shafted.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#730 - 2013-10-04 02:03:08 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
And no one in their right mind will fit this for PvE with a 16k EHP tank to get that 900 DPS you mention.

EVERYONE here is putting out max gank fits and then assuming that EVERYONE will suddenly fit all of their 400+ million ISK SoE cruisers with a max gank, 900 DPS fit with less EHP than 2 Punishers.

The reality will be far from it. The people that try to do that will learn quickly; others will be far more reasonable with their fits.

Max gank is somewhere in area of 1100 dps.

800 dps can be easily obtained with 4 unbonused pulse lasers and 2 DDAs, 900 if you use Blasters in Null. Here, I even made a fit last night.

It's pretty good. If you want to drop the analyzers you can fit more cap rechargers and throw on a nanobot accelerator to up the tank even more.

The ship does not have to try hard at all to get these ridiculous numbers. Noone gives a damn about EHP in PvE. If you care about EHP in PvE you are playing the wrong game.

I'll be honest, for the intended role that doesn't seem that excessive. A loss of only about 100DPS at most should theoretically be all you really need.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#731 - 2013-10-04 02:03:13 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:

Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Why would you care about tank when you have the greatest substitute for tank in the game? Why would you not focus on gank when trying to kill other players before their buddies show up? Unless you are sure you are going to get 1v1 honorable combat (HAH!) then trying to focus on outlasting your opponents borderline suicidal in this ship.

PvE? sure, I posted a fit. There is a link to it right above your post. It has more than enough tank for 6/10s. It could probably do a 7/10 with a little piloting skill. If you aren't minimizing tank in PvE then you aren't maximizing your profits, as that is what PvE is about, no?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#732 - 2013-10-04 02:05:36 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
CCP seems to have intended this ship as an entry-level Pirate faction cruiser.

Shocked
What? there is no such thing as an entry-level pirate faction cruiser. They are intended to be high SP ships

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2013-10-04 02:07:09 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
And no one in their right mind will fit this for PvE with a 16k EHP tank to get that 900 DPS you mention.

EVERYONE here is putting out max gank fits and then assuming that EVERYONE will suddenly fit all of their 400+ million ISK SoE cruisers with a max gank, 900 DPS fit with less EHP than 2 Punishers.

The reality will be far from it. The people that try to do that will learn quickly; others will be far more reasonable with their fits.

Max gank is somewhere in area of 1100 dps.

800 dps can be easily obtained with 4 unbonused pulse lasers and 2 DDAs, 900 if you use Blasters in Null. Here, I even made a fit last night.

It's pretty good. If you want to drop the analyzers you can fit more cap rechargers and throw on a nanobot accelerator to up the tank even more.

The ship does not have to try hard at all to get these ridiculous numbers. Noone gives a damn about EHP in PvE. If you care about EHP in PvE you are playing the wrong game.

My only distain with that fit is if you get caught by a rupture or a tengu, you are totally screwed. Then again I don't like any kind of rat specific tanking.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#734 - 2013-10-04 02:10:39 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

My only distain with that fit is if you get caught by a rupture or a tengu, you are totally screwed. Then again I don't like any kind of rat specific tanking.

Yeah, you kinda have to deal with that.

But! The odds of getting caught are slim to none. The ship has an insanely fast align speed to counterbalance its abysmal velocity. Catching it will be almost as hard as catching a frigate if the pilot is even slightly cognizant.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#735 - 2013-10-04 02:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
CCP seems to have intended this ship as an entry-level Pirate faction cruiser.

Shocked
What? there is no such thing as an entry-level pirate faction cruiser. They are intended to be high SP ships


Well, by entry level, I mean requiring less SP than other comparable ships to use even remotely effectively.

The ship is fine, really, with exception of the laser bonus. People are overreacting to how this will be used.

It's a great ship, TBH, and props to CCP for making something that caters to different types of players.
Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2013-10-04 02:14:42 UTC
Dehval wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:

Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Why would you care about tank when you have the greatest substitute for tank in the game? Why would you not focus on gank when trying to kill other players before their buddies show up? Unless you are sure you are going to get 1v1 honorable combat (HAH!) then trying to focus on outlasting your opponents borderline suicidal in this ship.

PvE? sure, I posted a fit. There is a link to it right above your post. It has more than enough tank for 6/10s. It could probably do a 7/10 with a little piloting skill. If you aren't minimizing tank in PvE then you aren't maximizing your profits, as that is what PvE is about, no?


Well I'd out fun somewhere in there along with profits, but I get your point.

Yes, it can be used to very successfully gank with very high dps and not much tank, I am not disputing that, but those are extreme fits and the target group are not those players.

You have to understand the mindset of the players this is geared towards. People bent on exploration, some newbies, others not, but all of them getting kind of tired from all those relic sites and craving some combat/ability to do it in one ship without switching. Here's an upgrade for their covops frigs! Naturally they will want to protect the ship and take care of it. None of them will break the 600-ish dps barrier with pve fits.

If someone decided to use this for ganks they will be a minority and a minority that will soon find itself lacking isk after a couple of losses. Just like most pve player will try to keep the ship safe, pvpers will risk it, but having in mind the price.. which group do you think will be more successful in their endeavours?

There won't be an endless swarm of blaster fit Stratioses descending over low/null. It might be one guy here and there and one he loses it a couple of times he will go back to cheaper ships.

(Ice) Miner for life.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#737 - 2013-10-04 02:16:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So basically you have an idea that doesn't correspond to what CCP is offering and you ***** about it, stomping your leg like a child. "No! I want the cartoon to continue!!!"

You have no facts, no logic and cannot respond to even one of my points.

Good day sir o7


Lol.

CCP is offering a ship that, and I quote, can be used for "killing anom runners". Which is precisely what I want to do with it.

Aside from you being butthurt about pvp players, what's wrong with that?

(oh, and I handily refuted all of your points, which is why you resorted to such an obvious diversion and dismissal tactic. It's a fair bet that the first person to do this is the overall loser of the argument. As such, I accept your surrender, being the gracious person that I am.)


Whats wrong is that you're trying to get a ship nerfed on an absurd fit that will never be used by anyone but you, and will result in guaranteed 400m lossmails.

Dehval wrote:

And you don't need 900 dps to run a 6/10. You can complete almost all of them with sub 400 dps. Why do we have to keep defending this ship keeping its insanely high dps?


You won't GET 900 DPS in a 6/10, because that requires you to be within 3 km using Void and Ogre IIs, which move at the speed of molasses.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Sturmwolke
#738 - 2013-10-04 02:34:27 UTC
Add in-space refit option for swapping high slot utility modules. Exception to this is weapons.
For example, you can swap covops cloak with a remote hull/armor/shield repper (for adhoc drones repair) in the field .... or any other utility mods.
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2013-10-04 02:36:42 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:
Dehval wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:

Why do you have to keep posting imaginary EFT fits that no one will use? It's an expensive ship, people will be careful with it and think tank first.

Why would you care about tank when you have the greatest substitute for tank in the game? Why would you not focus on gank when trying to kill other players before their buddies show up? Unless you are sure you are going to get 1v1 honorable combat (HAH!) then trying to focus on outlasting your opponents borderline suicidal in this ship.

PvE? sure, I posted a fit. There is a link to it right above your post. It has more than enough tank for 6/10s. It could probably do a 7/10 with a little piloting skill. If you aren't minimizing tank in PvE then you aren't maximizing your profits, as that is what PvE is about, no?


Well I'd out fun somewhere in there along with profits, but I get your point.

Yes, it can be used to very successfully gank with very high dps and not much tank, I am not disputing that, but those are extreme fits and the target group are not those players.
You have to understand the mindset of the players this is geared towards. People bent on exploration, some newbies, others not, but all of them getting kind of tired from all those relic sites and craving some combat/ability to do it in one ship without switching. Here's an upgrade for their covops frigs! Naturally they will want to protect the ship and take care of it. None of them will break the 600-ish dps barrier with pve fits.

If someone decided to use this for ganks they will be a minority and a minority that will soon find itself lacking isk after a couple of losses. Just like most pve player will try to keep the ship safe, pvpers will risk it, but having in mind the price.. which group do you think will be more successful in their endeavours?

There won't be an endless swarm of blaster fit Stratioses descending over low/null. It might be one guy here and there and one he loses it a couple of times he will go back to cheaper ships.

Its like talking to a coconut. Blaster proteus are one of if not the most popular stealth gank ship right now. They're more expensive, hurt more if you lose one, and wont be as effective as this ship. Tons of people fly them. The only thing the proteus has going for it is more ehp and the nullifier sub. Which you dont fit to most gank fits.

What makes you think there would be a minority of people using this for pvp? Thats ridiculous.

If its good for something people will use it for that. You can say its meant for one thing till you're blue in the face. Ships in this game dont have giant flags saying PVE on them or restrictions saying " YOU CAN ONLY SHOOT RED CROSSES WITH THIS!"

Look outside of your little box and try and think of what effects a ship like this would have on the game. Stop saying its for pve. Its for whatever people wanna use it for.
Soko Lsi
SASART Corporation
#740 - 2013-10-04 02:38:04 UTC
CCP please don't nerf this to hell!!!

You have made a perfect ship, it is not overpowered despite what the EFT warriors come up with. Who would use it like that?

Add some kind of laser bonus to the hull and leave the rest as is. A piece of art.