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[IDEA] Removing Local and In-System Intel
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Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#61 - 2011-11-15 19:13:33 UTC
praying next grayscale dev blog is about the new local / intel change
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#62 - 2011-11-15 23:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Wu Phat wrote:
praying next grayscale dev blog is about the new local / intel change


You and me both.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#63 - 2011-11-16 00:07:40 UTC
I still fail to see the issue.

Wormhole. Go. Find. Oooh, look, no local. Enjoy.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#64 - 2011-11-16 01:24:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) What is the difference between Nullsec and WH space with your intel changes? I don't see any differences. Decreasing null intel to WH style might seem reasonable, but there are HUGE differences in game play that significantly make this unbalanced. For most wormholes, there is no such thing as solo content. Your targets are almost always in a group, well tanked (often with RR), making them more dangerous to engage. Additionally, the rats themselves do enough damage to give most covert ships a short life expectency, and will more often than not switch targets to the new kid on the block. WH rewards are much higher than nullsec, and finally, WH traffic is highly limited, meaning the threat of an incoming gang is much lower than in nullsec. Ironically, since scanning for probes becomes automatic, life in a WH also becomes safer.


I put quite a bit of thought into making sure that mechanically there is zero difference between any type of space. The variation should come from the balance of the other variables - not the game play system. A new player figuring out how in-system intel works should be able to take that knowledge with him as he moves into less secures areas. Learning another actual way of doing intel just seems stupid to me.

Maybe CCP would be best having a scale of intel returns from ship sensors that are not dramatically different 'steps' equivalent to different types of space, something like a linear progression on system security. Or maybe the 'steps' would be best due to balance and ease of implementation concerns. Maybe SOV, development indexes, WH effects, incursions or any other system variable could effect it.

The only real fail will be if CCP made WH space and Null exactly the same for intel gathering under this system, since they play differently like you pointed out. I trust them not to mess it up that bad if they go for a system like this.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) I really think covert cloaks become OP in your system. The SB can instantly lock a target upon decloaking, such that no target can escape, and most BC's would have a hard time warping before a recon catches them. The truth is, I often rat with cloakies in system. Stay aligned, don't warp to zero, and stay alert, and 95% of the time you're uncatchable. Keeping up that diligence 100% of the time though, is not something I'd enjoy nor want to do. All covert ships can be reasonably well tanked, the target has NO warning that they are there before they attack, so why would you hunt with anything else?? (I'd really hate to deal with Noir with this change... yuck!!!) The truth is, the hunted deserves a little warning of potential danger. Its important for game balance, and under your intel scheme, covert cloaks break it! I personally think the unreconable minute of gate cloak is a little too much, allowing a pilot to more often than not locate a target and instantly warp to it from gate cloak.

-- Potential Gate cloak compromise: Anyone within scan range of the gate gets a gate activation notice....
-- Potential Cloak compromise: Severely limited offgrid scanning range while cloaked.... (except for covops, which should get an increased decloak-lock delay instead.)
-- Random Interceptor and Covops boon.... Increased scan range?


I don't know what you think SBs will do as tacklers in the balance of this system that they don't do now in WHs, with AFK cloaking, or to nab people like you willing to rat with hostiles in system. Maybe something would need to be done, but every cloaked ship shows up for at least a tick when coming through a gate, wormhole, undocking, or just logging into space. I don't really get your big concern so maybe you could articulate it a little more clearly for me.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3.) Finally, I really think that local should still exist... but in a truly delayed mode (on the order of 120 seconds), where you can't see local, and local can't see you for that entire delay. I thought of increasing this to constellation, but I can't think of a reasonable delay, and I really want to maintain the uncertainty involved in going through a gate! This also limits cloaky camping, in the sense that its not any more powerful than it already is because the person will appear in local if they stay in system long enough.


I agree that some sort of chat channel needs to bring geographically colocated but otherwise unaffiliated folks together. I really want a situation to allow that that doesn't scew the intel balance like now though. Just delaying an all knowing, member listed, local chat for 120 secs isn't enough. What did you think of my LY based chat channel instead?
Rassad
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-11-16 03:48:35 UTC
I would love the removal of local, I would kill hundreds of ships in the first week.


However I fear that after all the ratters died a few times, they would simply stop undocking to rat.



With no local, any ratting ship can be probed down in a few seconds, and tackled by a group of cloaked ships without any warning.


2 Bombers + a falcon can kill almost any solo ratter.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#66 - 2011-11-16 04:06:24 UTC
Rassad wrote:
I would love the removal of local, I would kill hundreds of ships in the first week.


However I fear that after all the ratters died a few times, they would simply stop undocking to rat.



With no local, any ratting ship can be probed down in a few seconds, and tackled by a group of cloaked ships without any warning.


2 Bombers + a falcon can kill almost any solo ratter.




The intent is to replace the capability of local with something that has exploitable holes but that can be properly balanced and doesn't result in a ratter gank fest. Maybe you are right in the sense that the adjustment phase will result in a hundred kills for you in the first week, but if that is the balanced state then there is just as much of a problem as there is now. The intent is that CCP develops the tools to BEGIN to balance in-system intel because you sure can't do it with local chat being what it is now.
Rassad
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-16 04:21:00 UTC
I do agree that it can be frustrating each time you enter a system, the bots/people instantly log off, or warp to pos.

However with no local, Null sec risk would greatly increase for ratters, So maybe a 30% increase in ISK rewards could compensate.

Dr'MeTaL
Taranis Innovations
#68 - 2011-11-16 06:23:32 UTC
lmao. i lov all the ppl sayin. " oh whats the problem with this" if you've never been, go to WH space and live there for i dont know mabe a month. you will quickly see the problems this creates. and doing it on a large scale like null sec would be a nightmare.

your scanner only goes so far. so you have to move around to figure out whats really out there. even then you dont know. i recall one day in WH space everyone was going about thier buisness and out of nowhere 30 cloaky tengus apear and desroy everything. you would say "someone wasnt d-scaning" as i said the problem with d-scan is it doesnt cover the whole system. and watching wh's for invaders doest always work. new wh's pop up randomly.

but one could say gates arent like wh's. they dont move.. right but wh's still pop up in null sec. sometimes dirictly to other null sec systems. making your scout watching the gate usless.

one reason this isnt so much of a problem in wh space is that you arent constantly connected to a thousand other systems. so getting to you takes work. so you really only have to keep an eye on a few systems to keep your saftey, and ppl in wh's are aware of the risk. and with that risk comes reward. isk in a wh is much easier to make so getting jumped isnt as big of a deal. in null isk comes slower, so less risk should be expected.

and think of null sec intel channels. many rely on these. if no one is spotted, no one is reported. also scouting would become very hard and very time consuming. ship losses would sky rocket. honestly i think the only ones that do want local gone is
gankers, and i dont think wanting more gank opertunitys is a good enough reason to remove local.

so there are some reasons not to. and if you really want those gank opertunitys you'll have to learn to scan and move out to WH space. and heck even if you dont want the ganks go try it out. i for one had alot of fun in WH space. its like the wild west of eve.
JongBlood
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-16 07:43:09 UTC
I'm intrigued by this idea and believe it could add another element of fun to the game. Both hunter and hunted would have a more rewarding experience. I also like the added value of not knowing which one you are.
Wu Phat
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#70 - 2011-11-16 17:22:52 UTC
Removing local and giving players a tool which they can govern over themselves is no different then turning over the P.I. to players. Clear and defined borders and invisible choke points pop up as invaders & defenders try to secure & control blind spots. Spying jumps to a new level, hiding fleets and the hot drop become even more mentally devastating. Also bots become more manageable and create an isk sink.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#71 - 2011-11-27 16:45:44 UTC
I am going to go ahead and give a 'specific' numbers example of what I am thinking since it might help people understand the concept. However please keep in mind that I AM NOT SAYING I HAVE THE BALANCE RIGHT IN THIS EXAMPLE. Arguing that what I am using as an example is over or under powered is irrelevant as it can be balanced and made to the right level by CCP as they adjust the system. This is just a fictional example to help portray the mechanics I am proposing.

Highsec:
Quote:
I am flying my trusty covops in highsec. I jump into a 1.0 solar system.

Like always I go through my intel check in the new system. I check my overview window I have configured to 'keep me safe' in highsec, which would immediately show me any wartargets or criminals on grid.

It is clear so I also glance at my travel tab of my 'main' overview window (the way I have it configured) and within my first 'tick' in system my tab is populated with a thousand 'unidentified objects' (my ship sensor is always set to 360 degrees and max range when I jump into a new system). Whoops. I screwed up and had my 'show all' tab rather then my travel tab selected and my ship is throwing up returns from every celestial, ship, plex, and even rat wreck in range of my ship sensors. Even worse I know that that is everything in system because in this safe system CONCORD ensures that my ship sensors work at a phenominal range of 500 AU to pick up unidentified objects while the system is only 30 AU across.

With the reactions of a cyborg I switch to my proper travel tab before the game even has a chance to 'tick' a second time.

My travel tab is comfortingly empty of anything but a few on grid neutrals since my ship hasn't yet refined anything that I have configured it to show. Who needs to see every unidentified object in highsec anyway?

The game ticks.

On my travel tab gates and stations pop up as the NPC 'broadcasts' are recieved by my ship sensors. A couple of mining ships at a belt 1 AU from the gate show up with pilot names and corp tags, while a Golem probably running missions shows up as well but I can't get pilot and corp info off of him without focussing my ship senors that way and I can't be bothered. If I flipped back to my 'show all' tab a good portion of the unID'd stuff has turned into a collection of celestials, structures, ships and wrecks throughout space.

As I am lazing around I see red out of the corner of my eye. 3 unidentified objects just showed up on my 'keep me safe overview'! Looks like that corp I am at war with just jumped into system and my ship picked them up. I quickly narrow my scan to 15% in the direction of the gate I am guessing they came through, and I am in time to pick up 2 hurricanes and some ship type that starts with a 'p'. Before I really process that information however, the odd signal out changes back to 'unidentified'. He must be cloaky! The highsec concord registry keeps displaying the fact there is a pilot who I am at war with (as it would if I had -10 standings set as well) within my 500 AU sensor range so I will know if he leaves system or not, but unless he stupidly decloaks I may not figure out what he is actually flying and will never be able to get 'location' data on him by using my sensors. Damn cloaks!

Oh-well. Being cloaky myself I am just going to ignore the war targets and carry on with my day.

I warp to a lowsec gate, change my keep safe setting to my 'lowsec' config, and jump in.


Lowsec:

TBC in another post. (will include finding complexes and other goodies!)