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A review of player giveaways with CCP and third party sites

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Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#641 - 2013-09-30 22:30:15 UTC
Indy Indy wrote:
Abernie wrote:
Indy Indy wrote:
I'm sorry you don't like my opinion. I guess now I feel your pain at CCP not liking yours. Stop playing if you don't like it. If you want to keep playing, stop bitching about things that won't even effect you in the least.

I see that we have a disagreement on whether CCPs decision to start giving out trillions of isk ingame to random third parties is going to affect the game.



You are confusing random third parties with an in game entity that is sponsoring a rather large our of game event, and a group that gives away 250m isk every time someone buys a GTC. I would say that CCP is making a smart business decision by backing an in game group that helps drive sales for them.

How does Somer receiving more isk do anything to the game? There will be at most 5 ships given out -- which anyone will have the chance to buy from the winners I am sure -- and those ships will most likely never be flown.

Sounds to me like everyone that is bitching is mad because they didn't get free stuff. Well -- you didn't have an idea that has blossomed into a very lucrative and fun service -- that gives back the EVE community every day. -- If you don't like Somer -- don't blink. If you don't like that CCP likes Somer -- don't play EVE.

If you don't like people trolling you -- don't be a ******* ******.


The issue isn't the value of the ships - it's the loads of free profit Somer is being given through increased use of their services. These ships are driving a lot of traffic to their lotteries; that's ISK that could have been going to their competition, but instead it is profit gained by Somer not through their own efforts, but because of what CCP arbitrarily gave them for free.

My analogy from the CSM statement thread:

Quote:
Some are arguing that Somer is receiving these prizes as a reward for them sponsoring the EVE Vegas event. Frankly, that's ridiculous logic. Let me give you an example: let's say you have a real-life company which owns a racing team. This company decides to sponsor a race, in which their team will participate. Should the track owners give this company's car a head start in the race in exchange for their sponsorship? Of course not! If they did, no other teams would participate, as it's a rigged event! Yet that is exactly what we have happening here with CCP and Somer - the "impartial" referees are giving one group of players an advantage over the others, merely becaue they sponsored an event. The rewards of sponsorship are visibility and advertising, not direct handouts and unfair advantages.


Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_
Indy Indy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#642 - 2013-09-30 23:44:18 UTC
Kirren D'marr wrote:
Indy Indy wrote:
Abernie wrote:
Indy Indy wrote:
I'm sorry you don't like my opinion. I guess now I feel your pain at CCP not liking yours. Stop playing if you don't like it. If you want to keep playing, stop bitching about things that won't even effect you in the least.

I see that we have a disagreement on whether CCPs decision to start giving out trillions of isk ingame to random third parties is going to affect the game.



You are confusing random third parties with an in game entity that is sponsoring a rather large our of game event, and a group that gives away 250m isk every time someone buys a GTC. I would say that CCP is making a smart business decision by backing an in game group that helps drive sales for them.

How does Somer receiving more isk do anything to the game? There will be at most 5 ships given out -- which anyone will have the chance to buy from the winners I am sure -- and those ships will most likely never be flown.

Sounds to me like everyone that is bitching is mad because they didn't get free stuff. Well -- you didn't have an idea that has blossomed into a very lucrative and fun service -- that gives back the EVE community every day. -- If you don't like Somer -- don't blink. If you don't like that CCP likes Somer -- don't play EVE.

If you don't like people trolling you -- don't be a ******* ******.


The issue isn't the value of the ships - it's the loads of free profit Somer is being given through increased use of their services. These ships are driving a lot of traffic to their lotteries; that's ISK that could have been going to their competition, but instead it is profit gained by Somer not through their own efforts, but because of what CCP arbitrarily gave them for free.

My analogy from the CSM statement thread:

Quote:
Some are arguing that Somer is receiving these prizes as a reward for them sponsoring the EVE Vegas event. Frankly, that's ridiculous logic. Let me give you an example: let's say you have a real-life company which owns a racing team. This company decides to sponsor a race, in which their team will participate. Should the track owners give this company's car a head start in the race in exchange for their sponsorship? Of course not! If they did, no other teams would participate, as it's a rigged event! Yet that is exactly what we have happening here with CCP and Somer - the "impartial" referees are giving one group of players an advantage over the others, merely becaue they sponsored an event. The rewards of sponsorship are visibility and advertising, not direct handouts and unfair advantages.




I wouldn't call it free -- Somer puts a lot of energy into doing what they do which in turns drives sales for CCP. You do something to drive sales of thousands of dollars and see if CCP offers you anything.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#643 - 2013-09-30 23:53:15 UTC
Wow, clearly nothing the mittani's slaves does are worthy of attention

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Indy Indy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#644 - 2013-09-30 23:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Indy Indy
except rage form domis for my moas when I come visit you guys......
Yhor Pita
#645 - 2013-10-01 01:20:27 UTC
Spawning special items for exclusive players/groups is the problem, not Blink, not gambling, but openly doing what T20 did and completely leaving the CSM in the dark while doing it. The CSM was specifically created to advise and deal with these situations, yet they get informed after the fact and are left holding the bag when the party is over.

I think it's sad that I came back to Eve to shoot at Goons, but everyday I find myself wanting to join them to shoot at some of the dumbfck denizens in the Eve universe.

I'm pretty terrible though, so all I do is suicide into gatecamps and chase condors.

Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2013-10-01 06:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ra Jackson
Indy Indy wrote:
You are confusing random third parties with an in game entity that is sponsoring a rather large our of game event, and a group that gives away 250m isk every time someone buys a GTC.


Confirmed that you have no clue how Somer works. Perfect. Keep discussing.
SubStandard Rin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#647 - 2013-10-01 08:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: SubStandard Rin
Well normally I play on Blink with my main. But I agree that CCP have handled this very unprofessional with Sommer Blink.

When I look at the "Winners" there is quite a few of them that strikes me as odd.


out of 21 special prices at least two is very fishy.
and then if you add the 50B blast there is another one.

and even more that is mildly suspicious.
the ones I flagged as suspicious is the following.


10th Aniverciry box
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=605475962
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=1817253866


Rubricon Cruiser
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=1750993143

50B blast
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=93756000


Bonk runners up (1 ticket / player so its more logical here)
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=92060039
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=93332087
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=1648319031
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=1474513963
http://cogdev.net/blink/?act=profile&id=1053572195



but lets look at the worst three and there Chances of winning.

Kenji Takei - played 5 blinks 1 won ( 40m in winning, a normal blink) that gives him 5+2 tickets
and with 21 items to win his chances of winning anything was 0,011%

Halo Phase - harder to calculate since he is an older char, but with only 23 played Blinks and been playing since Apr its roughly 1 ticket / week or enough to play the bonus blinks when he can.
lets assume 1 ticket as the winning is older that would give him 0,0016% chance of winning.
if its 10 tickets now it would be 0,016% chance of winning.

Azzbubble King - 18 played 2 wins (frigs) so the number of tickets should be 22 netting him with only 5 bonk prices
0,0083% chance of winning the 50B.


Sure lets play the dice game but its very worrying that that a Special rare cruiser and a 10th anniversary box is given to someone with so low chances of winning. sure its a Gamble but for SommerBlinks sake i hope both they and CCP is investigating the following since neither of them benefits from doubts. I hope its a fluke but for the sake of both "Games" i hope the flags are false flags but for now Please CCP don't give out more stuff without controlling it. because if someone at Sommer blink have been lining there pockets with those items we got a potential real legal issue here. since the box is worth real currency.
Andrev Nox
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#648 - 2013-10-01 09:08:25 UTC
Hiya!

You don't have to theorycraft on what tickets people had :) Remember that the "Blinks played" stat on profiles don't include promos, and promos do also give tickets.

The full Blast ticket list is here - http://assets.cogdev.net/bonk/blast-21.txt - I strongly recomend doing a right-click save as rather than just opening. The filesize will eat most browers' face :p

That list was posted, and a Dice was locked on Chribba's site and posted as well. All 500+ people who were in our Somer Lotteries channel or happened to come by our site all had 15-ish minutes to download that list and check on the locked Dice. Then the Dice were unlocked (here: http://eve-files.com/tools/dice/view/Blink_Blast_21 ) and the winners were announced.

If you can think of a more transparent way to have drawn the winners, or someone whose 3rd party random selection is more trustworthy than Chribba, we're always happy to take suggestions :)

Somer Blink - The original microlottery site.
SubStandard Rin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#649 - 2013-10-01 09:41:06 UTC
The biggest issue i have is that the ticket list isn't "Public untill after the drawing" thus the list can't be trusted it could have been manipulated after the drawing was concluded.

here lies the biggest improved Sommer Blink could do to show each player witch "Ticket number" they got in advance.
thus removing the issue all together.

this gives false security. and an oportunity to "Cheat" the system. this is only an issue on limited CCP items in my oppion.


as I said I don't think your cheating as you gain enough isk/h from just running the lottery but the problem lies in the observation off an issue.
Andrev Nox
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#650 - 2013-10-01 09:49:11 UTC
SubStandard Rin wrote:
The biggest issue i have is that the ticket list isn't "Public untill after the drawing" thus the list can't be trusted it could have been manipulated after the drawing was concluded.

here lies the biggest improved Sommer Blink could do to show each player witch "Ticket number" they got in advance.
thus removing the issue all together.

this gives false security. and an oportunity to "Cheat" the system. this is only an issue on limited CCP items in my oppion.


as I said I don't think your cheating as you gain enough isk/h from just running the lottery but the problem lies in the observation off an issue.



Appreciate the feedback :) You may have misunderstood part of my post above, though.

The way the event runs - the timer ends. We post a ticket list, and lock a dice on Chribba's site. We moderate our public channel to tell everyone that those are both posted, and to help explain how to download them for those who are less than tech inclined.

Then we sit and twiddle our thumbs for about 10-15 minutes, so that several hundred people have a chance to download those ticket lists, and so they can see what ticket numbers they had, or anyone else had before the drawing ever starts.

Then we re-moderate the channel and begin the drawing, using the ticket list that everyone now has a copy of and the dice that were locked on Chribba's site before the drawing started :)

Somer Blink - The original microlottery site.
Xeen Du'Wang
Perkone
Caldari State
#651 - 2013-10-01 10:56:57 UTC
Oh no, there is no way to manipulate it Im sure.

In the end, it doesnt matter how you do it.... Its the fact that you were given prizes to make a stack of ISK for selling GTC's for them.

So you were given an in game benefit because you work for CCP. Id bet the Devs dont even get that.

Now the question is... Unsubscribe or no?

I really dont like it when the Game Master gives all the cool stuff to one player, even if its me.
Zara Arran
Overload This
#652 - 2013-10-01 11:57:26 UTC
CCP Navigator wrote:

Q3, How do we know we can trust Fansites and third parties to operate fairly and independently?

A3, We have worked with a lot of third party sites in the past such as EVE Radio, BIG Lottery and SOMER Blink. These entities (and others of course) have demonstrated a solid history of trust and reliability. As a result, we can verify that they have been straight and true in their dealings and this should be encouraged.



They are trustworthy and reliable until they are not. Have you not played Eve yourself? Have you not learned from your own game? People are able to scam and steal by first gaining trust so they get more. I am not saying SOMER blink will.. but they can... and as you stated before, you cant control or give the community the security that this is fair. Plus, they are not a non-profit organisation (as mentioned many times in here), but a gambling site...

Regarding not involving the CSM.. CCP is not required to do this, and can't ask the CSMs opinion about everything they want to do. I doubt CCP realized how much negative responses they're getting from this...

I do want to say that I like the fact you listened to the group of people that were against redistributing unique ships.
+1 for that.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#653 - 2013-10-01 12:21:14 UTC
Still waiting for navigator to back up their claims that literally every single transaction, lottery, etc thus far have been 100% honoured and honest

have you audited literally every single in game and out of game system and event, Navigator?
Xeen Du'Wang
Perkone
Caldari State
#654 - 2013-10-01 12:40:16 UTC
Zara Arran wrote:
CCP Navigator wrote:

Q3, How do we know we can trust Fansites and third parties to operate fairly and independently?

A3, We have worked with a lot of third party sites in the past such as EVE Radio, BIG Lottery and SOMER Blink. These entities (and others of course) have demonstrated a solid history of trust and reliability. As a result, we can verify that they have been straight and true in their dealings and this should be encouraged.



They are trustworthy and reliable until they are not. Have you not played Eve yourself? Have you not learned from your own game? People are able to scam and steal by first gaining trust so they get more. I am not saying SOMER blink will.. but they can... and as you stated before, you cant control or give the community the security that this is fair. Plus, they are not a non-profit organisation (as mentioned many times in here), but a gambling site...

Regarding not involving the CSM.. CCP is not required to do this, and can't ask the CSMs opinion about everything they want to do. I doubt CCP realized how much negative responses they're getting from this...

I do want to say that I like the fact you listened to the group of people that were against redistributing unique ships.
+1 for that.


But didnt they just create new unique ships?
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#655 - 2013-10-01 16:42:05 UTC
Indy Indy wrote:
Kirren D'marr wrote:


(quote chain removed for brevity)

The issue isn't the value of the ships - it's the loads of free profit Somer is being given through increased use of their services. These ships are driving a lot of traffic to their lotteries; that's ISK that could have been going to their competition, but instead it is profit gained by Somer not through their own efforts, but because of what CCP arbitrarily gave them for free.

My analogy from the CSM statement thread:

Quote:
Some are arguing that Somer is receiving these prizes as a reward for them sponsoring the EVE Vegas event. Frankly, that's ridiculous logic. Let me give you an example: let's say you have a real-life company which owns a racing team. This company decides to sponsor a race, in which their team will participate. Should the track owners give this company's car a head start in the race in exchange for their sponsorship? Of course not! If they did, no other teams would participate, as it's a rigged event! Yet that is exactly what we have happening here with CCP and Somer - the "impartial" referees are giving one group of players an advantage over the others, merely becaue they sponsored an event. The rewards of sponsorship are visibility and advertising, not direct handouts and unfair advantages.




I wouldn't call it free -- Somer puts a lot of energy into doing what they do which in turns drives sales for CCP. You do something to drive sales of thousands of dollars and see if CCP offers you anything.


You obviously do not understand the idea of sponsorship, nor the analogy presented.

If CCP wants to reward Somer as a business partner in promoting the game, fine; but that reward cannot translate to an advantage in the competition with other players!

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_
Tavi Baldocchi
Smack Of All Trades
Absolute Glory
#656 - 2013-10-01 17:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tavi Baldocchi
The only way I can see handling this without canceling it would be:

1. Make it so that every person on eve can participate, regardless of blink bans.
2. Make it so every paid toon gets 1 ticket. So the only way to enter more then once would be having paid alts.
3. Make it completely free. No having to deposit any isk or tokens or anything.

Yes blink will still make money from the extra traffic but, they won't be receiving trillions in free stuff.



Edit: and as for them rigging the drawing, ccp can make sure that does the happen. Checking who receives the phone and checking if they have an con to be through in game transactions and checking ip adresses and I'm sure there is other ways to look into that. It might be a lot of work but considering blink will handle the event itself I'm sure ccp can handle making sure there is no in game for.
Josef Djugashvilis
#657 - 2013-10-01 17:14:59 UTC
Just out of curiosity, does anyone from Somer Blink think (or understand) that it is wrong for CCP to show favouritism to any player owned corp in the game for any reason?

This is not a signature.
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#658 - 2013-10-01 18:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ra Jackson
Tavi Baldocchi wrote:
The only way I can see handling this without canceling it would be:


Mate, it is over. Somer has hit the jackpot.
/edit: FunkyBacon has a nice summary about the differences of other sponsorships and Somer. In case someone still doesn't get it.
Shai 'Hulud
#659 - 2013-10-01 20:27:03 UTC
How in the hell did you think it was a good idea to give unique (i.e. valuable) items to players for nothing more than liking their out of game website?

I have played this game since launch. I have seen every CCP scandal come and go, and I have never said what I am going to say here:

I am done. 4 accounts canceled.

Goodbye EVE o/

**** YOU CCP .I..

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Steijn
Quay Industries
#660 - 2013-10-01 20:53:45 UTC
I think everyone is now flogging a dead horse. The only thing CCP understand is 'bums on seats', ie. the number of subscribed accounts. Mine have gone over this, and I know a fair few others that the owners dont intend extending the sub when it runs out.