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Two EASY fixes to Black Ops CCP can do in 5 minutes to make this class useful
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Alex Logan
OK Researches And Inventions
#1 - 2013-09-30 20:40:27 UTC
1) give them enough fuel bay space to hold enough isotopes to jump a small covert fleet or travel without the fuel hassle.

2) enable the possibility of fitting covops cloaks but leave the regular bonus to speed under cloak.

You can remove some of the weapon bonuses if you feel they would become overpowered. Black ops should be very focused towards mobility, the JB and _some_ EW. They don't fight more than a NOC would with his sidearm (reduced damage and range), nevermind the uber bond movies.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#2 - 2013-09-30 20:56:24 UTC
1) Maybe

2) No

Your suggestions won't fix BLOPS, only make them so good that they'll become overpowered.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Alex Logan
OK Researches And Inventions
#3 - 2013-09-30 21:14:22 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
1) Maybe

2) No

Your suggestions won't fix BLOPS, only make them so good that they'll become overpowered.



Overpowered?

- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag
- cant fit them for guerilla tactics either, other ship classes are much better and cheaper at that. People will be like, lmfaonub wtf was he trying to do? At your killmail.
- you cant solo with a BO. Adding an alt still won't do, you need at least 2, good luck multiboxing with 3 toons worth over 1.5 billion smackaroos.
- carebears may go mental over this but ultimately its not the bridging ship that kills them but the omgwtf popping out of the hole, and when that sort of gank hits the shiny paladin with t1 fit it don't matter if the blop ship had a covop cloak or not.

Fuel bay limits their usefullness in a small fleet where nobody can/wants to be the fuel mule. Ok maybe cyno cloaky hauler will do but most folks dont train that box of cabbage anyway, besides who goes out on a recon job with an indy anyway.

Lack of covops cloak makes blops pilots unable to travel freely. Its supposed to be the instrumental component of a stealth, agile fleet yet it fails to keep up bcos it cant warp under cloak. Makes me think of my grandpa's 60 yo volkswagen thats worth a fortune nowadays yet cant move cos it has no wheels

Just my 2c, sorry if i missed anything.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-09-30 22:20:31 UTC
Battle Crane? MWD, three slots of ewar, cloaky, and 9406m3 of fuel and bombs?
Quontor Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
#5 - 2013-09-30 22:23:46 UTC
Yes they suck at dps and tank and everything, but they have a jump drive. They're not supposed to be better than T1 battleships because they never engage in real pvp, they only drop on fights they can win for sure and jump out afterwards. That's what makes them special. Though for that same reason I agree with you on them needing a real fuel bay. Having to bridge around a covert hauler with you is ridiculous, just give them 10km³ fuel bay already. Also, you don't have to be able to solo with every ship, eve is still an online game, if you want to do blops drops, then maybe start or join a group that likes to do the same thing?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-09-30 22:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Battle Crane? MWD, three slots of ewar, cloaky, and 9406m3 of fuel and bombs?


Yeah, or three.


Takes a LOT of gas to move 15 bombers, 5 recons and a couple battleships, and blops jump range is notoriously low. There are a few regional jump they can't make at all, Querious and Catch comes to mind, Cloud Ring and Fountain are one that is close, you can only get from B-BD to J5A- then you have to jump again.


.....not to mention that you don't usually drop your fuel truck, the idea being that it is alive to have enough gas to get you home, gating it with a black ops fleet isn't exactly fun.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-09-30 22:40:24 UTC
Umm no... They're already flying around nullsec immune to gate camps and cyno jammers. Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers...
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-09-30 23:01:19 UTC
Alex Logan wrote:
- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag


Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it?
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-09-30 23:18:51 UTC
Having done and seen the power of a coordinated black ops campaign through the fountain/ delve grinds, I think people can safely say that the power of having a couple blops around is self evident.

There is valid room for discussion over the size of the fuel bay/jump range. Perhaps some specialized mid or low Slot mods could address those factors? (Like those for the scanning game)

But boosting the gank power has been suggested (read begged for) over and over. There just isn't any reason for it. Decrying the cost for the ship as a reason to make it a combat ship just doesn't work. T2 ships are by definition specialized in some way. I can't think of anything more specialized than bridging around cyno jammers.

Never fear the new rubi interceptor warp speed will make catching those nul bears infinitely easier without any other help. Bomb shelling systems is about to become very interesting.
Donbe Scurred
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-09-30 23:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Donbe Scurred
Froggy Storm wrote:

There is valid room for discussion over the size of the fuel bay/jump range. Perhaps some specialized mid or low Slot mods could address those factors? (Like those for the scanning game)


+1

Combined with the new mobile stations for refitting (assuming they fit in a BR) it should be an elegant solution.

They don't need more DPS as they already have significant advantages, get more friends if you need more DPS.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#11 - 2013-10-01 00:14:14 UTC
With the new cyno jammers coming up blops will be used for PI. Dust collection to be precise.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-10-01 01:32:05 UTC
Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.

Those who fly black ops love them
Those who don't hate them.

You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed.
Damian Gene
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#13 - 2013-10-01 19:57:45 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.

Those who fly black ops love them
Those who don't hate them.

You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed.


Which one(s) do you fly?
I have a widow, which, ya.. I use as transport. But I have all the BS's cross trained, though honestly havent even thought of using them for DED Complexes.
What complexes can you solo in them?
Ginger Barbarella
#14 - 2013-10-01 21:10:00 UTC
IIshira wrote:
...immune to gate camps and cyno jammers... Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers...



Ooooh.... *drooling commences*

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-10-01 21:20:09 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
IIshira wrote:
...immune to gate camps and cyno jammers... Why don't we just give them fighters and rename them covert ops carriers...



Ooooh.... *drooling commences*


I was trying to funny but that would be awesome. If only ever so slightly OP P
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-10-01 23:13:03 UTC
Damian Gene wrote:
Mathias Orsen wrote:
Nothing broke about any of the Blops I fly. Perhaps the Widow is the exception because missiles suck. When use as a Black-ops ship in pvp, they are the most threatening ships. Even better for running DED complexes in null sec.

Those who fly black ops love them
Those who don't hate them.

You can usually tell who is who when one of them starts talking about how the ship needs buffed.


Which one(s) do you fly?
I have a widow, which, ya.. I use as transport. But I have all the BS's cross trained, though honestly havent even thought of using them for DED Complexes.
What complexes can you solo in them?


Originally bought a widow for plexes because it has a whole lot of tank and can work at long range with a micro jump drive. The DPS was garbage though. Now I use a Panther. It's not a mach but it don't have to use gates either. While I always run DEDs with a friend, I'd say it can solo anything that any t1 BS can solo.

With 3 Domination Gyros and faction ammo, I get 787 DPS from the guns. I use Ogres on stations to bring the DPS to 1100. That is also with a set of hardwires for gunnery. As far as the tank goes.... Well be both know that t2 isn't gonna cut it. You have 4 mid slots to try to fit a tank in as well as needing to come up with Cap to keep the tank running. It's not got the shooting range of the mach so you also need Cap to burn the MWD a lot.

To put it simply, The Widow is the most easy Blops to fit for Plexing. The DPS will make you cry though. Sins are the best option if you are doing them in packs (3-5). The Panther for Plexing just means you are desperate to use a combo of covert cynos and Autocannons.
Eggs Ackley
#17 - 2013-10-01 23:40:25 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Alex Logan wrote:
- they suck at dps, and if you try putting on a real pvp fit they become something like a noobfit T1 BS except the wtf price tag


Here's an idea, how about you compare their DPS to the DPS of other ships that fit covops cloaks. It doesn't look so bad now does it?



They can fit covops cloaks now? Cool!
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-10-03 17:13:22 UTC
They do their intended job very well. A Recon can engage the target, cyno in a fleet of 5-10 to kill the target and all jump out before a response fleet can be formed.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#19 - 2013-10-03 17:53:36 UTC
Black op battleships are good enough since you can choose how to use them. i would like a mini doomsday though
Alex Logan
OK Researches And Inventions
#20 - 2013-10-03 20:01:23 UTC
I can top some 700-800 DPS on average from all 4 races, perhaps more with faction guns, rigs, skill hardwiring. Can even get a decent tank going. But that's not the point, there are other ship classes for that, wouldn't bring a 700 mil ship to do something I can do easy with a maelstrom or abaddon.

Black ops is something else and by the fact that they can't carry enough fuel, they're limited in fulfilling their role. Like having a 6 liter V8 and room for only half a gallon of gas. Just saying... we shouldn't have to tow an additional fuel tank.

As for the covop cloak thing. Yes the current bonus to speed and agility means they can insta warp once decloaked but I don't see how a blop can escape a decent camp, a hic or mobile bubble should prevent them from warping and a ceptor (with or without drones) can decloak it much before it has a chance of crawling out of the bubble. I had my share of 00 some time ago and never seen or went on a camp without an inty and/or hic.

Covop recons do crap damage, T3s with covop subsystem - about the same. Blops - same - but they lack the cloak so they pretty much suck at doing their job because of that.

Also the sin should give the sin, panther and redeemer some corresponding ew bonuses like the widow has. They still won't be overpowered even with 150M SP in combat in the pilot seat.
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