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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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The Underdark
Perkone
Caldari State
#561 - 2011-11-15 20:13:34 UTC
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills..

if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

what's the point of having different weapons specialties for each race if we're going to mix all the ships anyway?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#562 - 2011-11-15 20:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
The Underdark wrote:
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills..

if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

what's the point of having different weapons specialties for each race if we're going to mix all the ships anyway?


don't force a lack of diversity because you feel like you should get everything with minimal effort.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#563 - 2011-11-15 20:35:45 UTC
So much whining. I don't know what's more stupid, PVEers who thought that the old torp-Naga was good at PVE, or the people who are only just realising that Caldari has an entire line of hybrid boats and is the most SP-intensive race. Where other races have a primary weapon system and a secondary one (projectiles with a side of missiles; lasers with a T2 side of missiles; blasters with a side of drones), Caldari has two primaries in the form of rails and missiles, with another entire line of ECM boats.

Re. the Naga-Talos comparison. The damage and range bonuses are necessary to make the Naga useful - otherwise its horribly overshadowed by artillery and tachyons. But yeah, I can't help thinking that the Talos still looks a bit rubbish, even with the extra tracking and drone DPS. Part of this just comes down to the difficulty of getting its fat, slow arse into blaster range though, which is just another manifestation of the Gallente Problem.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2011-11-15 20:56:42 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
So much whining. I don't know what's more stupid, PVEers who thought that the old torp-Naga was good at PVE, or the people who are only just realising that Caldari has an entire line of hybrid boats and is the most SP-intensive race. Where other races have a primary weapon system and a secondary one (projectiles with a side of missiles; lasers with a T2 side of missiles; blasters with a side of drones), Caldari has two primaries in the form of rails and missiles, with another entire line of ECM boats.


It is rather amusing. I am not making fun of you I swear... but this post sounds very 2005-6. Except... replace Caldari with Minmatar. Minmatar WAS a dual weapon race once upon a time. Minnies used to cry and cry. Especially over the Typhoon.
The Underdark
Perkone
Caldari State
#565 - 2011-11-15 20:57:18 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The Underdark wrote:
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills..

if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

what's the point of having different weapons specialties for each race if we're going to mix all the ships anyway?


don't force a lack of diversity because you feel like you should get everything with minimal effort.



My previous posts already state that I'm primarily Gal / Hybrid pilot, I'm trying to make sure that people who prefer missiles actually get something this winter
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#566 - 2011-11-15 21:02:54 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:



Cruise naga would have high DPS with cruise and able to hit smaller ships even up close because there's no issue with tracking. These Tier 3 ships have 2 weaknesses...


1) no tank and vulnerability to alpha.
2) smaller ships can get in underneath the guns

you rule out number 2.





Not true, frigates are extremely hard to hit at close range with cruise missiles!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#567 - 2011-11-15 21:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Nemesor wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
So much whining. I don't know what's more stupid, PVEers who thought that the old torp-Naga was good at PVE, or the people who are only just realising that Caldari has an entire line of hybrid boats and is the most SP-intensive race. Where other races have a primary weapon system and a secondary one (projectiles with a side of missiles; lasers with a T2 side of missiles; blasters with a side of drones), Caldari has two primaries in the form of rails and missiles, with another entire line of ECM boats.


It is rather amusing. I am not making fun of you I swear... but this post sounds very 2005-6. Except... replace Caldari with Minmatar. Minmatar WAS a dual weapon race once upon a time. Minnies used to cry and cry. Especially over the Typhoon.


Yeah, there does seem to be a general attitude that Minmatar is a dual-weapon race, but it's not really borne out by their ships today. I mean, there's the Typhoon, and the Cyclone has three launcher slots, and... what else? Rupture? Hardly. I was playing in 2006 but I didn't really know wtf was going on, so I can't remember if Minmatar actually had a full line of missile ships that got reworked, rather than just "a couple of ships that can also fit missiles if you really want to, one of which nobody really uses anyway".

Edit - there's also the Huginn, that's also split, now that I think of it. And of course on the capital level there's the Naglfar. Ah, so it's not as bad as I described at first. Smile
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#568 - 2011-11-15 21:41:41 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
So much whining. I don't know what's more stupid, PVEers who thought that the old torp-Naga was good at PVE, or the people who are only just realising that Caldari has an entire line of hybrid boats and is the most SP-intensive race. Where other races have a primary weapon system and a secondary one (projectiles with a side of missiles; lasers with a T2 side of missiles; blasters with a side of drones), Caldari has two primaries in the form of rails and missiles, with another entire line of ECM boats.


It is rather amusing. I am not making fun of you I swear... but this post sounds very 2005-6. Except... replace Caldari with Minmatar. Minmatar WAS a dual weapon race once upon a time. Minnies used to cry and cry. Especially over the Typhoon.


Yeah, there does seem to be a general attitude that Minmatar is a dual-weapon race, but it's not really borne out by their ships today. I mean, there's the Typhoon, and the Cyclone has three launcher slots, and... what else? Rupture? Hardly. I was playing in 2006 but I didn't really know wtf was going on, so I can't remember if Minmatar actually had a full line of missile ships that got reworked, rather than just "a couple of ships that can also fit missiles if you really want to, one of which nobody really uses anyway".

Edit - there's also the Huginn, that's also split, now that I think of it. And of course on the capital level there's the Naglfar. Ah, so it's not as bad as I described at first. Smile


Ahem, Hurricane is split weapons as well, along with the Rifter...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#569 - 2011-11-15 21:44:01 UTC
The Underdark wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The Underdark wrote:
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills..

if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

what's the point of having different weapons specialties for each race if we're going to mix all the ships anyway?


don't force a lack of diversity because you feel like you should get everything with minimal effort.



My previous posts already state that I'm primarily Gal / Hybrid pilot, I'm trying to make sure that people who prefer missiles actually get something this winter

They have the Drake.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#570 - 2011-11-15 21:54:23 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The Underdark wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The Underdark wrote:
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills..

if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

what's the point of having different weapons specialties for each race if we're going to mix all the ships anyway?


don't force a lack of diversity because you feel like you should get everything with minimal effort.



My previous posts already state that I'm primarily Gal / Hybrid pilot, I'm trying to make sure that people who prefer missiles actually get something this winter

They have the Drake.



READ THE POST! We're getting a Drake for Winter?
Gods Coldblood
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2011-11-15 22:11:32 UTC
Can someone please tell me what the Talo's bonuses are now?

My Youtube Channel: Here
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#572 - 2011-11-15 22:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starling
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Ahem, Hurricane is split weapons as well, along with the Rifter...

How many people fit launchers on a Cane and how much skills do you need to fit a meta 4 rocket launcher on a Rifter compared to training T2 large turrets?

Let's face it, in spite of all the funny hybrid ship designs Caldari is a missile/ECM race if you care to look at what people actually fly. Introducing one half decent hybrid ship isn't going to make people train all those gunnery skills.

The Underdark wrote:
What's more taxing to a player? making them train 3 basic skills to III or IV or having them train 6 levels of advanced weapons and all the support skills.. if you want a hybrid boat and use hybrid weapons, just train a gal BC, don't force missile people to train a whole new weapons group

Couldn't have said it better.

Jenny Cameron wrote:
Many Caldari pilots haven't trained a lot of hybrids as they quickly learned that hybrids aren't the way to go. Especially not LARGE hybrids. I don't think one single tier 3 BC is going to change that. If the Naga doesn't get its missile bonusses back I think the Naga will have little use and most pilots flying it will actually be Gallente pilots that see its advantages over the Talos.

Why have two hybrid platforms among the new battlecruisers anyway.

And this.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#573 - 2011-11-15 22:52:17 UTC
Phantomania wrote:

READ THE POST! We're getting a Drake for Winter?


I'm sorry, before this what was the last rail ship?

The Rokh, and that was what, 2-3 years ago?

come again?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Apex Bex
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#574 - 2011-11-15 22:52:37 UTC
As a pure Caldari pilot I'm going to chime in here. I only have missile skills, mostly because of the limitations of Hybrids. It's never been an issue in the past because the vast majority of Caldari boats support missile slots primarily. It's what we do. Like Amarr do lasers and Minmatar do Projectiles... To move away from that and give us another underused Hybrid platform shows a distinct lack of forethought or consideration for the majority of Caldari pilots. The fact is, I'd be better off cross training to Amarr and flying their missile specialised boats than waiting on my next remap [in 6 months time] to train the as yet unproven but reworked Hybrids.

A previous poster claims we want it all our way. That's just absurd. All we want is a fair go.

Oracle: Lasers
Tornado: Projectiles
Talos: Hybrids
Naga: Hybrids

^^ Notice anything missing here?

It's not about wanting it all. It's about wanting something.

Disciple of Bob
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#575 - 2011-11-15 22:53:51 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
stuff


That was before the hybrid change. And there is promise of even more work to be done.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#576 - 2011-11-15 22:59:36 UTC
Apex Bex wrote:
As a pure Caldari pilot I'm going to chime in here. I only have missile skills, mostly because of the limitations of Hybrids. It's never been an issue in the past because the vast majority of Caldari boats support missile slots primarily. It's what we do. Like Amarr do lasers and Minmatar do Projectiles... To move away from that and give us another underused Hybrid platform shows a distinct lack of forethought or consideration for the majority of Caldari pilots. The fact is, I'd be better off cross training to Amarr and flying their missile specialised boats than waiting on my next remap [in 6 months time] to train the as yet unproven but reworked Hybrids.

A previous poster claims we want it all our way. That's just absurd. All we want is a fair go.

Oracle: Lasers
Tornado: Projectiles
Talos: Hybrids
Naga: Hybrids

^^ Notice anything missing here?

It's not about wanting it all. It's about wanting something.

You only have missile skills, and as such limit yourself.

It's your fault, you have known that Caldari uses both missiles and hybrids


Quote:
Railguns are the long range version of the Hybrid Turret. Railguns feature longer optimal ranges than Beam Lasers or Artillery. With the right fittings, a railgun equipped sniper battleship can hit targets at distances greater than 200 kilometers. These weapons have poor tracking and are restricted to kinetic and thermal damage types.

Railgun optimized ships can be found across new eden, with the Caldari Merlin, Cormorant, Moa, Ferox, and Rokh serving as prime examples of ships designed for ranged combat.

Railguns are primarily used as a Sniping weapon, especially on the Rokh Battleship which serves as the Caldari's premier long range weapons platform. The Megathron is often equipped with Railguns (with these ships colloquially referred to as Sniperthrons), giving the vessel a potent long range combat capability in fleet engagements.



Your justification that there MUST be a projectile/laser/hybrid/missile span of ships is short sighted.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#577 - 2011-11-15 22:59:37 UTC
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Ahem, Hurricane is split weapons as well, along with the Rifter...

No they don't.

Split weapons means a bonus for 2 different weapons, not some utility high slots… Otherwise the Raven is split weapons too maybe ?? Roll
kamara D'lo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#578 - 2011-11-15 23:12:42 UTC
Not sure if this has been said before but...

Couldn't they make the Naga a cruise missile ship, with an explosion vel. penalty, and a ROF bonus?

Range wont be an issue, and wont be over-powered vs smaller ships as long as the penalty is balanced correctly.

This would make the "Caldari only use missiles!" whiners stop (hopefully) and make it so the Talos isnt a 2nd-rate hybrid ship when compared to the Naga.

Idk, i might be missing something here. But could this work?
Apex Bex
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#579 - 2011-11-15 23:13:54 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's your fault, you have known that Caldari uses both missiles and hybrids


It's the path I've chosen. Tell me this, had I trained nothing but Lasers, I'd still have a Tier 3 Battlecruiser to fly, would I not? And that race uses missiles too...

It's imbalanced, plain and simple.

Disciple of Bob
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#580 - 2011-11-15 23:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Why not just give the Naga a 20% Railgun only range bonus per level and added lock range. If you still feel it needs a 2nd bonus, make it a bonus to tracking computer effectiveness so that It can boost it's tracking effectiveness greatly, but at the cost of any remaining tanking ability.

This allows it to hit at about 90 km with solid dps and tracking, or higher range with crap tracking, but even more glass cannon problems since it can't fit it's mids with shield extenders.

In a way, it becomes a glass cannon form of the pulse apoc with high tracking and dps at good mid range. This boost it's alpha ability and makes it the king of ranged dps, but even more highly susceptible to close range ships.