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Repair the "Bounty System" please

Author
Samuella IV
#1 - 2013-09-25 21:56:40 UTC
What we need :

1. 50 % not 20 %
2. Minimum bounty = 10 mil isk
3. Immunisation of chars younger than 1 month
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#2 - 2013-09-25 22:05:02 UTC
1. No it makes self bounty collecting too efficient.
2. Meh, any bounty amount is fine. Isk is easy to get.
3. Hell no

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2013-09-25 22:05:38 UTC
With your numbers it's possible for a ganker to make a profit killing themselves with an alt for a bounty again. I've seen some of them running numbers and they are only missing profit by slim margins once insurance is taken into account as it stands. The numbers can't go up by much without making it easily possible for them to abuse the system and leading to the sillyness of the previous system where placing a bounty was just giving the gankers more money.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#4 - 2013-09-26 00:25:39 UTC
Samuella IV wrote:
What we need :

1. 50 % not 20 %
2. Minimum bounty = 10 mil isk
3. Immunisation of chars younger than 1 month


Why is this needed?
Sera Kor-Azor
Amarrian Mission of the Sacred Word
#5 - 2013-09-26 00:48:36 UTC
I agree with this. The bounty system needs to be fixed.

The bounty system has been broken for a long time now. I quit EVE for a little bit, and only came back when I saw an EVE trailer about a wealthy industrialist that put a substantial bounty on someone ganking his miners. I created a new character, and was offered the 'Bounty hunter pack'.

Within my first week, a complete stranger places a billion ISK bounty on me for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

I complained about this in the Viziam channel, and I was told not to worry about it because bounties are useless anyways.

You know, pretty much as they have always been.

The only change to the bounty system was to tie the bounty in with ship value. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Let's think about how bounties work in the real world for a moment. Do I get more money for killing someone with a bounty on his head because he was driving a sports car instead of riding a bicycle?

Okay, sure, in the real world someone with a bounty on their heads can't make a duplicate of themselves to kill themselves to collect the bounty on themselves either. However, is tying the bounty in with ship value really the best solution?

Let's go back to how bounties work in the 'real world' again. In the real world, bounties are decided by the Police, and awarded by the Police. Individual citizens don't get to place bounties on each other on a whim. The amount of the bounty is decided by the Police, not by the aggrieved victim. The amount of the bounty is not dependant on the cost of the vehicle a person is in. You don't get to place a bounty on yourself.

I had suggested a bounty fix before. My idea was this.


  • Bounties should be tied to kill mails - If someone illegally blows your ship up, only THEN do you have a reason and an opportunity to add a bounty.
  • -Bounties are added by clicking a radio button - Instead of having the ability to add whatever ISK amount you feel like, adding a bounty should be more like filing a complaint against another character. 'Place bounty, Y or N', instead of 'Place bounty, type in a number here.
    -Bounties are tied with skill points - The bounty ISK amount is determined by a formula, such as the amount of skill points multiplied by the number of illegal kills made.
    -Bounties are processed through DED- In the real world, the Police decide and assign the bounties...so why is EVE different? D.E.D is supposed to be the branch of CONCORD that deals with EVE's worst criminal offenders, but what do they actually do? Realistically, D.E.D should be the agency which assigns bounties and pays them out.
    -Player's bounties are assigned randomly by NPC agents - Instead of being able to collect your own bounty with an alt, bounty hunters should be assigned player bounties randomly through a D.E.D. bounty hunter agent. Player's bounties might be a level 4 mission, with NPC bounties until the bounty hunter grinds enough standings. Hunters and targets might be matched by making sure their skillpoints are more or less equal. You would access the bounty agent by clicking the now essentially useless bounty button in practically every station.



A lot of people who join EVE have visions of making money as a bounty hunter, only to find out that this system is flawed...has always been flawed....and has never been fixed....despite the fact that CCP advertised that they had finally fixed the bounty hunter system. They haven't. They merely fixed it so that it was no longer profitable to blow yourself up with an alt.

"A manu dei e tet rimon" - I am the devoted hand of the divine God.

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#6 - 2013-09-26 02:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Justice system, in my EVE?
Not on my watch!

Sera play this game for a while, you will understand why it runs how it runs then.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#7 - 2013-09-26 03:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Sera Kor-Azor wrote:


I had suggested a bounty fix before. My idea was this.


  • Bounties should be tied to kill mails - If someone illegally blows your ship up, only THEN do you have a reason and an opportunity to add a bounty.
  • -Bounties are added by clicking a radio button - Instead of having the ability to add whatever ISK amount you feel like, adding a bounty should be more like filing a complaint against another character. 'Place bounty, Y or N', instead of 'Place bounty, type in a number here.
    -Bounties are tied with skill points - The bounty ISK amount is determined by a formula, such as the amount of skill points multiplied by the number of illegal kills made.
    -Bounties are processed through DED- In the real world, the Police decide and assign the bounties...so why is EVE different? D.E.D is supposed to be the branch of CONCORD that deals with EVE's worst criminal offenders, but what do they actually do? Realistically, D.E.D should be the agency which assigns bounties and pays them out.
    -Player's bounties are assigned randomly by NPC agents - Instead of being able to collect your own bounty with an alt, bounty hunters should be assigned player bounties randomly through a D.E.D. bounty hunter agent. Player's bounties might be a level 4 mission, with NPC bounties until the bounty hunter grinds enough standings. Hunters and targets might be matched by making sure their skillpoints are more or less equal. You would access the bounty agent by clicking the now essentially useless bounty button in practically every station.



1. killmails do not show the only way for a person to lose ISK in this game due to another players actions. Bumping a ship costs a miner ISK, stealing the loot drop from someone else also causes ISK loss, and there are I'm sure a million other ways people of stolen ISK from players besides blowing up their ship, why should these losses not be a viable option for a bounty placement?

2. You do not explain how restricting how much bounty you place on someone benefits the game at all.

3. Having DED assign and dish out bounties doesn't fix any current problems of the bounty system.

4. The bounty hunter agent idea sounds interesting, a potential problem with the system is that a person with really high SP's may become essentially immune to the system simply because so few people in game would be matched to him by the agent, especially when you consider that not everyone with the requisite high SPs to hunt them would even want to do so.

In addition some people like myself have extremely low SP aggression alts where again finding an appropriate bounty hunter my prove difficult.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Yolo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-09-26 03:25:34 UTC
I do agree that the minimum amount for a bounty should be increased, today there are to many ways you can get a bounty.
Like asking for the Jukebox in Help channel game me a million extra bounty.

The idea is fun, but its use is flawed.

- since 2003, bitches

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2013-09-26 03:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
This discussion has already been beaten to death.

Quote:
Let's go back to how bounties work in the 'real world' again. In the real world, bounties are decided by the Police, and awarded by the Police. Individual citizens don't get to place bounties on each other on a whim. The amount of the bounty is decided by the Police, not by the aggrieved victim. The amount of the bounty is not dependant on the cost of the vehicle a person is in. You don't get to place a bounty on yourself.

lolno. Bounties are not police specific. And yes... people can place bounties on each other on a whim (happens all the time in the real world).

And how else would you design the payout system in a virtual world where you can't die (you are cloned), you can jump between spare bodies (jump clones), and you can have friends (or alts) kill you and collect the bounty in your stead?

And why shouldn't it be possible to place a bounty on yourself? Maybe you are bored and want people to come at you? Capsuleers (the players) are not known for their sanity.

Quote:
Bounties should be tied to kill mails - If someone illegally blows your ship up, only THEN do you have a reason and an opportunity to add a bounty.

So people who gank are more worthy of having bounties placed on them than scammers, AWOXers, corp thieves, propagandists, and corp directors (who sometimes give the orders to perform all the above actions)?

The reason the security status restriction to placing a bounty was removed was because...
- different people find different forms of behavior worse than others.
- an artificial restriction allowed people to do "bad" things without actually breaking any rules/laws in-game... leaving victims of such actions no recourse.

Quote:
-Bounties are tied with skill points - The bounty ISK amount is determined by a formula, such as the amount of skill points multiplied by the number of illegal kills made.

Why? Total skillpoints does not denote ability or cunning.
There are people out there with less than 2 million skillpoints and have never flown anything other than a frigate or destroyer... and yet they can wreak havoc and destruction on large scales.

Quote:
-Player's bounties are assigned randomly by NPC agents - Instead of being able to collect your own bounty with an alt, bounty hunters should be assigned player bounties randomly through a D.E.D. bounty hunter agent. Player's bounties might be a level 4 mission, with NPC bounties until the bounty hunter grinds enough standings. Hunters and targets might be matched by making sure their skillpoints are more or less equal. You would access the bounty agent by clicking the now essentially useless bounty button in practically every station.

Cool. So how are you supposed to get a bounty on someone who spends all their time in a station? Or in deep null-sec? Or who never logs in?
Sera Kor-Azor
Amarrian Mission of the Sacred Word
#10 - 2013-09-26 04:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sera Kor-Azor
Arya Regnar wrote:
Justice system, in my EVE?
Not on my watch!

Sera play this game for a while, you will understand why it runs how it runs then.


I have been playing this game for a while. A few years now in fact. This is a new character.

Unless it can be explained to me how placing a billion dollar bounty on me when I am a few weeks old helps anybody, then I am going to have to assume this is a 'fallacy of special knowledge' sort of defence.

"A manu dei e tet rimon" - I am the devoted hand of the divine God.

Sera Kor-Azor
Amarrian Mission of the Sacred Word
#11 - 2013-09-26 05:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sera Kor-Azor
ShahFluffers wrote:
This discussion has already been beaten to death.

"lolno. Bounties are not police specific. And yes... people can place bounties on each other on a whim (happens all the time in the real world)."

This is the first I have heard of this, are you confusing bounties with law suits? Unless you are referring to something like the bounty against Salaman Rushdie for writing the Satanic verses. Still, the people that placed the bounties weren't just anybody. They had to have the legal authority to do so, in the case of Salaman Rushdie it was a Fatwa.

"And how else would you design the payout system in a virtual world where you can't die (you are cloned), you can jump between spare bodies (jump clones), and you can have friends (or alts) kill you and collect the bounty in your stead? "

As you have seen, I have already outlined a possible design for the payout system. I have already considered the fact that you can't die, you can jump between clones, and you can have friends or alts kill you.

My suggestion is, bring back the podding, and have the bounty targets assigned by NPC Agents randomly. If you have to grind standings to get a bounty mission, and if you only have a 1 in a 100 chance of getting yourself or your friend, it just might not be worth it to hunt yourself.

"And why shouldn't it be possible to place a bounty on yourself? Maybe you are bored and want people to come at you? Capsuleers (the players) are not known for their sanity."

Why should you be able to place a bounty on yourself? Vanity mostly. Perhaps the capsuleers aren't sane, but is everyone in EVE insane? Is Concord insane too? Is EVE like the Bizarro world?

"So people who gank are more worthy of having bounties placed on them than scammers, AWOXers, corp thieves, propagandists, and corp directors (who sometimes give the orders to perform all the above actions)? "

Noted. However, should it be possible to hand out random fly-by bounties to noobs like they were candy? This happens quite frequently, and it seems like a kind of exploit. It really makes the whole bounty thing meaningless, don't you think?

Scammers, corp thieves, AWOXers and so forth also get their names listed in the Crime and Punishment section, and other lists. Gankers don't get that, nor should they.

"The reason the security status restriction to placing a bounty was removed was because...
- different people find different forms of behavior worse than others.
- an artificial restriction allowed people to do "bad" things without actually breaking any rules/laws in-game... leaving victims of such actions no recourse."

Ah, but I did not mention one's security status did I?

Also, bounties are still meaningless...which is my point really....NOT FIXED. So, how is placing a bounty on anyone a form of 'recourse'? If I never undock or fly an expensive ship, no one will ever be able to collect the bounty on me. Does this seem like a functioning system to you?

"Why? Total skillpoints does not denote ability or cunning.
There are people out there with less than 2 million skillpoints and have never flown anything other than a frigate or destroyer... and yet they can wreak havoc and destruction on large scales. "

Good point.

So how much money could I collect on the bounty of these people who can only fly a frigate or a destroyer in this new system tied to ship value?

Skillpoints are a metric to use, just as ship value is. The only time you are going to collect a bounty on someone is if you destroy their ship in combat. Under the current system, the more expensive the ship, the higher the payout. You can't fly the expensive ships without having more skillpoints. Also, tying the bounty to skillpoints gives an indication of how hard that bounty target might be to kill. ISK vs. RISK. A pilot with 20 million skillpoints is just as dangerous is a frigate as he is in a battleship, so why is the payout less?

[quote]-Player's bounties are assigned randomly by NPC agents - Instead of being able to collect your own bounty with an alt, bounty hunters should be assigned player bounties randomly through a D.E.D. bounty hunter agent. Player's bounties might be a level 4 mission, with NPC bounties until the bounty hunter grinds enough standings. Hunters and targets might be matched by making sure their skillpoints are more or less equal. You would access the bounty agent by clicking the now essentially useless bounty button in practically every station.


"Cool. So how are you supposed to get a bounty on someone who spends all their time in a station? Or in deep null-sec? Or who never logs in?"

The same way you do now I guess.

You don't.

What a great system! Don't change a thing!

I should have added that the D.E.D. agent who assigns you a bounty will also be a tracker agent. So accepting a bounty mission wouldn't be like a typical mission. You would receive updates for the systems where your bounty target flew through last, and you can of course refuse the assignment.

"A manu dei e tet rimon" - I am the devoted hand of the divine God.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2013-09-26 08:03:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Sera Kor-Azor wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this, are you confusing bounties with law suits? Unless you are referring to something like the bounty against Salaman Rushdie for writing the Satanic verses. Still, the people that placed the bounties weren't just anybody. They had to have the legal authority to do so, in the case of Salaman Rushdie it was a Fatwa.

Oh dear... where to start...

Pakistani Politician put bounty on some poor filmmaker. Do note that the man placing the bounty did so out of his own pocket and was not sanctioned by anyone... least of all his government.

US government put bounties on Native Americans.
While officially sanctioned by a governmental body the rules and reasons for the placement on bounties were tenuous at best. Natives from non-aggressive tribes were covered by the bounty system were just as valid as any of the others.

Even today in so-called "civilized" nations people call for bounties over acts they perceive as unjust.

As far as Fatwas are concerned... they are non-binding religious declarations (similar in status to the Pontiff's edicts) that anyone of a certain religious status can make within Islam. Their "legality" can only be backed up by those governing bodies that agree or support it... which in the case of Salaman Rushdie only really happened Iran. They are by no means "official" and anyone can ignore them (as most do).

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that just being "official" doesn't mean that a bounty is more or less valid. It just means that it is more visible.
I'm pretty sure that the various gangs that live in my area put "hits" out on rival gang members. It's still technically a "bounty."


Quote:
Why should you be able to place a bounty on yourself? Vanity mostly. Perhaps the capsuleers aren't sane, but is everyone in EVE insane? Is Concord insane too? Is EVE like the Bizarro world?

More or less... yes.
The lore paints EVE as a dystopian world where greed, economic poverty, bribery, soulless economics, back-stabbing, slavery, terrorists, suicide bombers, super spies, prostitution, psychopaths, tribal/factional infighting, torture, mass murder, genocide, drug dealing, extortion, blackmail, genetic manipulation, "living death," anarchy, Orwellian security, etc. are pretty much everywhere.

Quote:
Noted. However, should it be possible to hand out random fly-by bounties to noobs like they were candy? This happens quite frequently, and it seems like a kind of exploit. It really makes the whole bounty thing meaningless, don't you think?

...

Scammers, corp thieves, AWOXers and so forth also get their names listed in the Crime and Punishment section, and other lists. Gankers don't get that, nor should they.

CCP Sounwave talking about design principles and the reasoning behind the Bounty Hunting system

tldr...
- it isn't an exploit... getting lots of bounties from lots of people that you kill was precisely the intent.
- any system has to be simple and open (yours has many arbitrary restrictions and doesn't account for the fact that players can hide and make it useless)
- any system must be largely player driven (NPC agents over player on player issues would be a no-go)

And what about the scammers, corp thieves, AWOXers that don't get called out?

Quote:
Also, bounties are still meaningless...which is my point really....NOT FIXED. So, how is placing a bounty on anyone a form of 'recourse'? If I never undock or fly an expensive ship, no one will ever be able to collect the bounty on me. Does this seem like a functioning system to you?

Your alternative is no better. It's too narrow, can't fix the issues regarding alts, and offers nothing for the victims of "legal crimes" (see: crimes that don't mechanically break any "rules").

As far as "fixing" the bounty system... it will never be perfect. Ever. Not without introducing a whole host of draconian mechanics to force it to work the way you want it to (which I'm pretty sure that the DEVs would never consider).


Quote:
Skillpoints are a metric to use, just as ship value is. The only time you are going to collect a bounty on someone is if you destroy their ship in combat. Under the current system, the more expensive the ship, the higher the payout. You can't fly the expensive ships without having more skillpoints. Also, tying the bounty to skillpoints gives an indication of how hard that bounty target might be to kill. ISK vs. RISK. A pilot with 20 million skillpoints is just as dangerous is a frigate as he is in a battleship, so why is the payout less?

Errrr, no.
Skillpoints have NEVER indicated how hard it is to kill someone. All it means is that the pilot has more options in what he/she can do... not all of which might be combat (and often not more than a handful of combat classes).

For Example: I have an industrial character with 40 million skillpoints. In any combat ship, he's easy pickings even to a 900k SP noob (because he has no weapon skills). However he can tank a shitload of damage over a long period of time in an Orca.

The ISK value of the ship a person a better metric to follow as there are lots of stupid people out there who like flying "bling" (often with lacking skills).


I should have added that the D.E.D. agent who assigns you a bounty will also be a tracker agent. So accepting a bounty mission wouldn't be like a typical mission. You would receive updates for the systems where your bounty target flew through last, and you can of course refuse the assignment.

We already have Locator Agents.