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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#541 - 2011-11-15 15:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
So the Naga is now a better blaster platform than the Talos.... With a single tracking computer and 2 mag stabs you get over 800 turret dps with null at 20km optimal and 20km falloff....


oh my.


Give the whiners the missile slots but keep the 2 hybrid bonuses. Let them watch as a low-sig, orbiting Tornado at 10km speedtanks their torpedos while they're sitting still webbed and burning to death in a ship comprised of fail.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#542 - 2011-11-15 16:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
With the exception of the Talos the Tier 3 BC skins still look incomplete, lacking some details like windows/lights.

Edit:

I am not happy that the Caldari get an optimal + damage bonus for hybrids. One of these two has to go before the ship is released. Either that or make them Torpedo boats like other suggested.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Alsyth
#543 - 2011-11-15 16:07:12 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

Rails have ALWAYS been part of Caldari ships. Every race has 2 weapon platforms

Caldari - rails/missiles
Gallente - blasters/drones
Amarr - lasers/missiles
Minmatar - Projectiles/missiles

Everyoen else trains both up to be versitile and you're moaning because you can't have everything your way. HTFU. It's a gank ship not a stupid mission runner for you to blitz with.

Damn carebears, quit whining.


You are joking, right ?

Do you honestly think you need to skill for missile to get an effective and versatile Amarr/Matar character ?
No you don't, because guns are effective and versatile enough to get everything done. Missile and drones are not.
Add mandatory shield tanking and pre-nerfed speed, and you get why Caldari pvp sucks outside of some niches (ECM, Drake, Tengu).

Nothing to do with carebears, really (who would make more lvl4 ISK/hr in Nightmare/Vargur/Machariel than in Tengu/CNR/Golem anyway, or more Incursion ISK/hr in Legion/Loki/Mach/Night/Vindi than in any Caldari ship... Apart from Basilisk).
Goose99
#544 - 2011-11-15 16:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Gypsio III wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Dr Sodius wrote:
finally caldari gets one really good hybrid platform and carebears, who want the new bc's to run lvl4's with them, are crying?

best update if you ask me!

thx ccp :)

**** them , they have half dozen carebear ships they can choose from


Damn right. All this crying about the torp Naga just goes to show what happens when you let carebears infect a game.


Yes, because all the 1337 pvpers will be using rails now.Lol

5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage
10% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal falloff
^It must fixed thus to unsuck the NagaCool

Tornado with ACs make better dps than Naga torps for pve anyway... same as for pvp. You can remove Naga from the game now, there's no loss, to anyone.Roll
spawx
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#545 - 2011-11-15 16:27:11 UTC
just add torpedo and cruise missile bonuses and fitting bonuses and let it be a multi boat.. hybrid and missiles.. problem solved ^^
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#546 - 2011-11-15 16:33:23 UTC
spawx wrote:
just add torpedo and cruise missile bonuses and fitting bonuses and let it be a multi boat.. hybrid and missiles.. problem solved ^^




This, don't hate missiles CCP, TBH, what will it hurt! No1 will care as the pilots from the other races say the Naga sucks either way!
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#547 - 2011-11-15 17:02:02 UTC
You should give the Tornado torpedos bonus and missile launchers, turn it into a baby Typhoon. Instead of the Naga
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#548 - 2011-11-15 17:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Alsyth wrote:

You are joking, right ?

Do you honestly think you need to skill for missile to get an effective and versatile Amarr/Matar character ?
No you don't, because guns are effective and versatile enough to get everything done. Missile and drones are not.
Add mandatory shield tanking and pre-nerfed speed, and you get why Caldari pvp sucks outside of some niches (ECM, Drake, Tengu).

Nothing to do with carebears, really (who would make more lvl4 ISK/hr in Nightmare/Vargur/Machariel than in Tengu/CNR/Golem anyway, or more Incursion ISK/hr in Legion/Loki/Mach/Night/Vindi than in any Caldari ship... Apart from Basilisk).


What the hell are you talking about?

Missiles are not necessary and are not the exclusive weapon choice for Caldari. Nowhere did I say you MUST train both to be effective. I stated that all races have 2 weapons systems and if you want to take advantage of all the ships of that race you need to train both.

If you have no missile skills, it's pointless to fly a Malediction or Sac. If you don't have drone skills why fly an Ishtar? Will you complain to CCP that since you don't have those skills that they should open up that ship with slots to suit everyone? No.

There is a Caldari split BC (ferox), missile BC (drake) and now a hybrid BC (Naga)

Look at it from this perspective

lolBantam, Kessie, Merlin
lolOsprey, Caracal, Moa
Cerberus, Eagle
Scorp (EW but still missile/hybrid dual weapon ship) Raven, Rokh
lolFerox, Drake, Naga


If this ship were just a missile boat with no hybrid slots or bonuses, you wouldn't be crying about it.


And now you have people wanting cruise missile and torpedo bonuses... "hey CCP give me a ship with bonuses on ALL THE THINGS!!"



All the people wanting a torp naga have very likely not flown or used one on Sisi yet. THEY SUCK because of the torp's range. When you come in that close to hit, you end up falling under the guns and you DIE.



EDIT:

I'm going to spell it out barney style for you.

If you make it a full torpedo boat and strip the hybrids off and give it two torp bonuses is that any more justified? Or only because YOU have missile skills and no hybrid skills trained?

If you return it to a split ship, with 1 bonus each, will you continue to claim that it sucks as earlier in this thread?

If you throw on cruise, you can now hit not only BS and BCs, but cruisers as well and even frigs and destroyers... at range. Throw on rigor rigs and you have a new fotm ship.

Torps on stealth bombers do well because you have 3 torpedo bonuses- damage, exp velocity, and travel velocity.

On the Naga, pick one... You'll still never fly it.

It has to be either all or none because of the applied bonuses.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

spawx
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#549 - 2011-11-15 17:47:45 UTC
They culd give bonuses to flight time and speed of torps.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#550 - 2011-11-15 18:13:39 UTC
spawx wrote:
They culd give bonuses to flight time and speed of torps.

You still won't hit for full damage- you need that bonus otherwise the DPS will be sub par.

that means yuo'd have to give it 3 bonusus and unless you pulled hybrids that would be a boat with 5 bonuses. From there other races will want the same treatment and you end up with a be-all and end-all ship class.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#551 - 2011-11-15 18:38:49 UTC
Ghads Ghost wrote:
But why waste a ship just for PVP? Eve fitters are an inventive crew they will ALWAYS find to use a ship for what it isnt intended to do... looks like in this case another sue was found... until this nerf from CCP

Indeed. For PvE you only use 5% of EVE's ships, most others are either useless or PvP ships.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#552 - 2011-11-15 18:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ether
Turning the Naga into a hybrid platform was a very good decision, one that I fully support. The bonuses seem fine. The only thing, as with the rest of tier3 bcs, that may need some attention, is careful tuning of powergrid and cpu to ensure that several viable fitting are possible.

However, as some other suggested, adding some missile launcher hardpoints may be a good idea, to offset the complete specialization, allowing it to sport some missile fire. Essentially, keep the hybrid bonuses as they are, but add the possibility of launcher hardpoints on the hull for those wanting to make a mix with torps as support.





  • Tier3s may need careful Powergrid/CPU tuning to ensure a wide range of viable fittings for different situations is viable (and that they can actually fit T2 weapons)
  • The Naga changes were very good and the ship is now usable, and feels excellent as a hybrid platform.
  • It is a good idea to let the Naga have a few missile launcher hardpoints as a support weapons system, but without bonuses to avoid the mess, so it can have some flavor and satisfy - at least partly - missile users.

Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2011-11-15 18:53:26 UTC
Well the Sisi build is now final apparently, just bug fixing to go so it would seem CCP have ignored a massive amount of feedback and are unwilling/uncapable of ballancing the game.
Luckily I have characters skilled in all races so will just use the overpowered new ships/mods. I feel sympathy for people that are not skilled in Amarr or Minmater.
Alsyth
#554 - 2011-11-15 19:03:47 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:

What the hell are you talking about?


Something you did not understand, obviously, as your answer has nothing to do with my post. I will explain it again.


First, I don't care about Naga, torps or guns it's fail compared to other t3 BCs anyway due to its lack of speed, big sig, bad slot layout (3 lows on a tank/speed/gun ship ? joking right ?), fitting, etc. Don't think I'll ever fly it over a Tornado or Oracle.
And I can fly gunships, I'm not asking for missiles because that's the only weapon I have, but because CCP hiding its head in the sand when it comes to missile flaws is a bad thing for the game.


You said everyone was training both weapon system of its race to be effective and versatile ?
-> It's not true. Any non caldari character with only guns (and small/med drones) as a weapon system can be effective and versatile in every situation.
With Caldari it's not the case. If you only have missile, you're almost useless or at least subpar in most situations (ECM, Drake and Tengu are a different story). And even worse, if you skill missiles AND hybrids, you're still useless or subpar in most situations. And you said missile wasn't necessary? Then you only fly subpar ships in almost any situation (extreme sniping with low alpha and dps is not useful).


And it has nothing to do with carebears. At all.
You just mistake missiles for a carebear weapon system, but they are just a broken one that need fixes from CCP (drones too, tbh). Wanting missiles to be fixed and not forgotten (like CCP is doing with the non-missile Naga) is not a carebear whining.




Few other things :
- What would be the problem with a Cruise Naga, really? DPS would be low, and yeah, it would hit cruisers, but every gunship can do that better except at very close range, BSs or t3 BCs included
- Don't compare Naga to stealth bombers, they are too different ships. Anyway, an explosion RADIUS (and not speed) bonus (-10%/lvl) and a damage (+5%/lvl) OR range (+15%/lvl) bonus and I would definitely use a torp naga (once its base speed, slot layout, etc. are fixed).

Jenny Cameron
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#555 - 2011-11-15 19:11:01 UTC
Raven Ether wrote:
Turning the Naga into a hybrid platform was a very good decision, one that I fully support. The bonuses seem fine.

Perhaps it's a good idea, perhaps it isn't.

Many Caldari pilots haven't trained a lot of hybrids as they quickly learned that hybrids aren't the way to go. Especially not LARGE hybrids. I don't think one single tier 3 BC is going to change that. If the Naga doesn't get its missile bonusses back I think the Naga will have little use and most pilots flying it will actually be Gallente pilots that see its advantages over the Talos.

Why have two hybrid platforms among the new battlecruisers anyway.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#556 - 2011-11-15 19:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Alsyth wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:

What the hell are you talking about?


Something you did not understand, obviously, as your answer has nothing to do with my post. I will explain it again.


First, I don't care about Naga, torps or guns it's fail compared to other t3 BCs anyway due to its lack of speed, big sig, bad slot layout (3 lows on a tank/speed/gun ship ? joking right ?), fitting, etc. Don't think I'll ever fly it over a Tornado or Oracle.
And I can fly gunships, I'm not asking for missiles because that's the only weapon I have, but because CCP hiding its head in the sand when it comes to missile flaws is a bad thing for the game.


You said everyone was training both weapon system of its race to be effective and versatile ?
-> It's not true. Any non caldari character with only guns (and small/med drones) as a weapon system can be effective and versatile in every situation.
With Caldari it's not the case. If you only have missile, you're almost useless or at least subpar in most situations (ECM, Drake and Tengu are a different story). And even worse, if you skill missiles AND hybrids, you're still useless or subpar in most situations. And you said missile wasn't necessary? Then you only fly subpar ships in almost any situation (extreme sniping with low alpha and dps is not useful).


No, the reason you think I didn't address you was because you misunderstood my initial post.

I did not say that you NEED to know both systems to be versitile in PvP. I said you NEED to in order to utilize every ship of a specific race.

You need missile skills to fly a sacrelidge effectively. You need drone skills to fly an Arbitrator effectively. You need hybrid skills to fly a Megathron effectively.

You can refuse, you can train only energy turrets... but don't come whining when you can't fit a malediction.


Quote:
And it has nothing to do with carebears. At all.
You just mistake missiles for a carebear weapon system, but they are just a broken one that need fixes from CCP (drones too, tbh). Wanting missiles to be fixed and not forgotten (like CCP is doing with the non-missile Naga) is not a carebear whining.


Missiles are broken in PvP not because of the weapons themselves, but because of the inability to do instant damage. flight time is more than enough for logistical support or a fast ship (most these days with exception of caldari) to warp out before taking damage. Torp ravens are a slight exception but only because of very short flight time but they are still very slow and active tanks just suck.

Missile velocity needs to be bumped a LOT (with a modifier for explosion velocity to keep things balanced) to allow at least somewhat instant damage.

Quote:

Few other things :
- What would be the problem with a Cruise Naga, really? DPS would be low, and yeah, it would hit cruisers, but every gunship can do that better except at very close range, BSs or t3 BCs included
- Don't compare Naga to stealth bombers, they are too different ships. Anyway, an explosion RADIUS (and not speed) bonus (-10%/lvl) and a damage (+5%/lvl) OR range (+15%/lvl) bonus and I would definitely use a torp naga (once its base speed, slot layout, etc. are fixed).



Cruise naga would have high DPS with cruise and able to hit smaller ships even up close because there's no issue with tracking. These Tier 3 ships have 2 weaknesses...


1) no tank and vulnerability to alpha.
2) smaller ships can get in underneath the guns

you rule out number 2.

On the second part I am comparing the Naga to the bomber not because they are the same, but how to get effective damage our of a torp boat. You need 3 bonuses. You are requesting a 15% range bonus per level? In flight time or speed?. and from there you want an explosion radius drop of 10%???

Let's see.. first, a Naga pilot with BC V:

Torpedo exp. radius would be 250m
Range increase base caldari navy jugg is 9km so I'm estimating at least 30km but I got too lazy to calculate to level V.

Would you like an "i win" module with that?

That's the problem... nobody is thinking about what they're suggesting.. it's just "oh no I want a new ship to play with too!"

You glossed over any of my points including the fact that there is no dedicated, effective hybrid BC. You and others tell people, "train gallente because I don't want to train hybrids"

You are your own contradiction.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#557 - 2011-11-15 19:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
I am a straight PVPer. This is my perspective on the removal of missiles from the Naga.

I was excited to see BS-bashing torpedo Nagas, and finally an interesting alternative ship to fly in missile fleets (currently only the Drake and Tengu are viable, but the Naga with heavy missile launchers would have been extremely viable)...

I am no longer looking at buying a Naga immediately, and have frankly lost most of my interest in the ship. Long-term, the Naga and the Talos will now either overshadow one over the other, or prove to be interchangeable and virtually identical anyway. Either way, there is no longer any kind of unique role that I can see it would have for any of my PVP.

Edit: TL;DR people that already use guns, specifically hybrids, are extra happy about getting 2 new ships instead of 1. People who can / can only use missiles are sad about this change. I can use both, and I think the Naga and the game in general would really benefit by reverting to a dual platform.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2011-11-15 20:02:30 UTC
The fact the Naga can out match a Talos with Blasters is a glaring problem lol

...bit worrying that one.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#559 - 2011-11-15 20:08:22 UTC
Talos and Naga are quite well balanced with each other, ship per ship. From Speed/tracking/drones vs Range. If there are any lasting problems, they stem from hybrids generally sucking or the class as a whole being to squishy.

Also, currently drowning in missile lovers tears...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Joshua Samson
Doomheim
#560 - 2011-11-15 20:12:59 UTC
I dont know about you but i find the whole 700DPS at 70km to be pretty good. The whole "naga is useless now" whines are funny because of it.