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Crime & Punishment

 
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Ganking too easy?
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#261 - 2013-09-23 13:33:18 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

Kill Rights only prevent players like me from ganking because I have goals in the game other than ganking and fly your standard Lvl4 fit ship which runs about $700 Million ISK and I don't want noobs to have KR on me.



Funny thing is, most people you'll gank will not sell the KR to someone who can actually pose a threat to you. They're so bad at it that I've flown full freighters (~2.5b total ISK value, hull + cargo) out of the same station they live in with no "consequences" from the owner(s) of the killrights.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#262 - 2013-09-23 15:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
There is no single ship tank (on a ship appropriate for the mission) in the game that can handle ganking Thrashers x4-6


Why on earth do you think that a single player deserves to be able to defeat 4-6 other players without doing anything? Your ship would be pretty OP if it could, honestly. The fact that you cannot effortlessly tank 4-6 other players is a sign that there is at least a shred of game balance. And that what you are asking for, by the way. No effort. Because you are mining, so you are almost by definition afk.

And yeah, I gotcha, you hate the destroyer class of ships. They punch above their weight class.

They're supposed to. That is literally their function. So, TS about that.

Quote:
Remind me again how Kill Rights work when a gang of cheap ganking ships collectively has more dps than any tank can handle and afterwards, when you want to get payback the ships are so cheap as to be a waste of time to shoot?


They are still working just fine. You got killed, you get a kill in return. It's neither their fault nor the game's fault if you chose to fly an expensive ship and they fly cheap ones.

Like I said, your entire problem is a misconception that killrights are in any way intended to give you isk balance, as well as your feeling of entitlement to inflict equal isk losses just by virtue of having been killed in the first place. This isn't Kentucky civil court, hoss. You don't get to sue for regress of grievances when someone breaks a window in your car. You seem to feel that you should be allowed to get "cost of damages plus pain and suffering" and that's not how it works in EVE.

You know, I think I just nailed down what's wrong with every carebear's attitude. A combination of misconceptions about how the game is supposed to work, and a feeling of entitlement of some kind. Thus far it's present in every single one I have ever dealt with.



There is not the slightest misconception. Gratx on being the resident Baddie who goes from thread to thread to make himself feel like a bad man though.

And grats on making up "straw man after straw man" of things I never asked for, ever, in the entire thread. I never asked to defeat 4-6 guys, it was a rebuttal to those who post "fit a tank" like you as if that is the issue here.

Try to stay on topic Skippy. Kill Rights exist to prevent ganking by people. They exist to create a chance at payback for "illegal acts" as defined by EVE programming.

This is not my mechanism, it is the way the game currently is.

But they currently only prevent ganking by people with something to lose. Others have learned to exploit the mechanism to be beyond anyone's attempt at payback.

Ergo: Kill Rights are broken.

Nothing you have posted even addresses this because you can't. You just want to create me out of whole cloth making up who I am to hear yourself talk like you know something and make yourself feel better. Here's some advice: Get out of your mom's basement and stop basing your self respect on "outing people as miners" (lol) and thinking you are a "real player" (ROFL) who actually "plays Eve" in some "superior way" (LMAO).

It's a video game bro and only baddies at it try to call people baddies to feel better about the fact that they are bad.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-09-23 16:48:22 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Try to stay on topic Skippy. Kill Rights exist to prevent ganking by people. They exist to create a chance at payback for "illegal acts" as defined by EVE programming.

This is not my mechanism, it is the way the game currently is.

But they currently only prevent ganking by people with something to lose. Others have learned to exploit the mechanism to be beyond anyone's attempt at payback.

Ergo: Kill Rights are broken.


I am almost 100% convinced that kill rights and bounties are CCP's way of trolling carebears. KRs are only useful against the occasional ganker. I've also seen them used to hilarious affect when corpies turn off their safeties to shoot a neutral repr during an awox. But no professional ganker or pirate cares about KRs because they are KOS already. I wouldn't term living with a negative sec status an "exploit" though.

I'm not sure if KRs are broken, or serving their intended function.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#264 - 2013-09-23 16:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Leto Thule wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

......The idea is to create more "emergent game play" so that there is more motivation to *actually use the Kill Right mechanism* because as it stands right now it is a waste of everyone's time......

.........What IS in dispute is whether Kill Rights work to punish dedicated gankers. Only those with a vested interest in ganking think it works......

......Not one post in this thread has provided the slightest evidence that Kill Rights work, while we all agree Kill Rights only prevent otherwise reputable characters from having a ganking fling.....


Ok man.. I think you are misunderstanding what a killright is for. I fly in lowsec, so this may differ a bit (but not TOO much). A killright gives the attacker a tactical advantage. It does not mean you will emerge victorious, and it is not intended as a punishment for anyone. It gives you the ability to take the first shot.

Now, as for your point of no evidence that KR's work, I have an example of HOW they can be used to your advantage:

My corpmate pops this guy in his exploration ship and pods him. So he gets a killright on my corpie for 30 days, whatever. Dude who got popped comes back with a few buddies the next day, and we engage them about 100k off station, flying cruisers to their dessies/crusiers. 4 v 3 us. Anyhow, they were smart about it. They waited for us to get close and then activated the killright and started their attack. This allowed them to engage WITHOUT taking the station guns. Not realizing the killright activated, the rest of my corp (including myself) attacked them, and aggressed the station guns. We got wiped out because they were smart about the useage of the killright. It enabled them to destroy 4 decently priced cruisers with relative ease. The system DOES work, it just is not intended to be used in the context that you want it to be.

Thinking constructively, the only way you will counter gankers is to fly with a fleet. Use ECM or TD. Pay attention to the signs in local. Use DSCAN, ect. If your flying a noncombat ship, keep it aligned. Its very possible to escape if your smart about it. After you show them they arent going to get an easy pick off of you, they will most likely move on to another target.



No, I am not remotely confused as to what they are for.

Read the OP. The idea is an improved Mechanism that can be used to counter dedicated gankers that manage their sec status above blinkie.

In addition, that episode of your camp getting pwned by gate guns has very, very little to do with the KR mechanism and more about you guys being newbs and getting pwned in a standard strat.

This is how we do it without KRights.

We send out one destroyer to go for a fragile ship (like a Tornado). He panics as the Catalyst gets close and opens fire, flagging himself to combat and the gate guns. The others then pop from the gate and rush him along with whoever else is in his gang. They also panic and shoot first. Tornado goes down in a flash and the whole camp is broken up by 4 catalysts who get a 100mill KM for the cost of 4 million in ships.

Happens every day to noob camps.

YES, KR can be effective against nublings. This thread is about how they are easily circumvented by pros ganking in high sec for profit/extortion rackets.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#265 - 2013-09-23 17:39:06 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

......The idea is to create more "emergent game play" so that there is more motivation to *actually use the Kill Right mechanism* because as it stands right now it is a waste of everyone's time......

.........What IS in dispute is whether Kill Rights work to punish dedicated gankers. Only those with a vested interest in ganking think it works......

......Not one post in this thread has provided the slightest evidence that Kill Rights work, while we all agree Kill Rights only prevent otherwise reputable characters from having a ganking fling.....


Ok man.. I think you are misunderstanding what a killright is for. I fly in lowsec, so this may differ a bit (but not TOO much). A killright gives the attacker a tactical advantage. It does not mean you will emerge victorious, and it is not intended as a punishment for anyone. It gives you the ability to take the first shot.

Now, as for your point of no evidence that KR's work, I have an example of HOW they can be used to your advantage:

My corpmate pops this guy in his exploration ship and pods him. So he gets a killright on my corpie for 30 days, whatever. Dude who got popped comes back with a few buddies the next day, and we engage them about 100k off station, flying cruisers to their dessies/crusiers. 4 v 3 us. Anyhow, they were smart about it. They waited for us to get close and then activated the killright and started their attack. This allowed them to engage WITHOUT taking the station guns. Not realizing the killright activated, the rest of my corp (including myself) attacked them, and aggressed the station guns. We got wiped out because they were smart about the useage of the killright. It enabled them to destroy 4 decently priced cruisers with relative ease. The system DOES work, it just is not intended to be used in the context that you want it to be.

Thinking constructively, the only way you will counter gankers is to fly with a fleet. Use ECM or TD. Pay attention to the signs in local. Use DSCAN, ect. If your flying a noncombat ship, keep it aligned. Its very possible to escape if your smart about it. After you show them they arent going to get an easy pick off of you, they will most likely move on to another target.



No, I am not remotely confused as to what they are for.

Read the OP. The idea is an improved Mechanism that can be used to counter dedicated gankers that manage their sec status above blinkie.

In addition, that episode of your camp getting pwned by gate guns has very, very little to do with the KR mechanism and more about you guys being newbs and getting pwned in a standard strat.

This is how we do it without KRights.

We send out one destroyer to go for a fragile ship (like a Tornado). He panics as the Catalyst gets close and opens fire, flagging himself to combat and the gate guns. The others then pop from the gate and rush him along with whoever else is in his gang. They also panic and shoot first. Tornado goes down in a flash and the whole camp is broken up by 4 catalysts who get a 100mill KM for the cost of 4 million in ships.

Happens every day to noob camps.

YES, KR can be effective against nublings. This thread is about how they are easily circumvented by pros ganking in high sec for profit/extortion rackets.


Im not a nub, and my corp mates have been pvping for years. Lets remember who is whining about HISEC and getting ganked. Thats you. It wasnt a gate camp, it was a random encounter off station. Maybe if you opened up your eyes, you would see that I wasnt degrading you or your OP, I was pointing out where a KR can be useful, in direct counterpoint to your post that says nobody can show it. I also tried to give you some constructive feedback and you responded by insisting im a noob. Bring it out to lowsec and we will see who ends up flying back in their ship and who wakes up in their home station.

KR's are working as intended.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#266 - 2013-09-23 17:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Leto Thule wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:

......The idea is to create more "emergent game play" so that there is more motivation to *actually use the Kill Right mechanism* because as it stands right now it is a waste of everyone's time......

.........What IS in dispute is whether Kill Rights work to punish dedicated gankers. Only those with a vested interest in ganking think it works......

......Not one post in this thread has provided the slightest evidence that Kill Rights work, while we all agree Kill Rights only prevent otherwise reputable characters from having a ganking fling.....


Ok man.. I think you are misunderstanding what a killright is for. I fly in lowsec, so this may differ a bit (but not TOO much). A killright gives the attacker a tactical advantage. It does not mean you will emerge victorious, and it is not intended as a punishment for anyone. It gives you the ability to take the first shot.

Now, as for your point of no evidence that KR's work, I have an example of HOW they can be used to your advantage:

My corpmate pops this guy in his exploration ship and pods him. So he gets a killright on my corpie for 30 days, whatever. Dude who got popped comes back with a few buddies the next day, and we engage them about 100k off station, flying cruisers to their dessies/crusiers. 4 v 3 us. Anyhow, they were smart about it. They waited for us to get close and then activated the killright and started their attack. This allowed them to engage WITHOUT taking the station guns. Not realizing the killright activated, the rest of my corp (including myself) attacked them, and aggressed the station guns. We got wiped out because they were smart about the useage of the killright. It enabled them to destroy 4 decently priced cruisers with relative ease. The system DOES work, it just is not intended to be used in the context that you want it to be.

Thinking constructively, the only way you will counter gankers is to fly with a fleet. Use ECM or TD. Pay attention to the signs in local. Use DSCAN, ect. If your flying a noncombat ship, keep it aligned. Its very possible to escape if your smart about it. After you show them they arent going to get an easy pick off of you, they will most likely move on to another target.



No, I am not remotely confused as to what they are for.

Read the OP. The idea is an improved Mechanism that can be used to counter dedicated gankers that manage their sec status above blinkie.

In addition, that episode of your camp getting pwned by gate guns has very, very little to do with the KR mechanism and more about you guys being newbs and getting pwned in a standard strat.

This is how we do it without KRights.

We send out one destroyer to go for a fragile ship (like a Tornado). He panics as the Catalyst gets close and opens fire, flagging himself to combat and the gate guns. The others then pop from the gate and rush him along with whoever else is in his gang. They also panic and shoot first. Tornado goes down in a flash and the whole camp is broken up by 4 catalysts who get a 100mill KM for the cost of 4 million in ships.

Happens every day to noob camps.

YES, KR can be effective against nublings. This thread is about how they are easily circumvented by pros ganking in high sec for profit/extortion rackets.


Im not a nub, and my corp mates have been pvping for years. Lets remember who is whining about HISEC and getting ganked. Thats you. It wasnt a gate camp, it was a random encounter off station. Maybe if you opened up your eyes, you would see that I wasnt degrading you or your OP, I was pointing out where a KR can be useful, in direct counterpoint to your post that says nobody can show it. I also tried to give you some constructive feedback and you responded by insisting im a noob. Bring it out to lowsec and we will see who ends up flying back in their ship and who wakes up in their home station.

KR's are working as intended.



Ok, I will apologize. But surely you will grant that it was your own poor gameplay that led to the victory, not the KR per se?

That was my point, and I apologize but I never called you a nubling directly, just suggested that if you manage KR like a pro then they are completely and utterly ineffective.

You and your corpies were too aggressive and paid for it by the station guns. Happens when you are having fun and a corpie was attacked. You let your emotion take over the situation and you paid for it.

Does not mean KR are working like intended in all cases. They can be easily managed to never put yourself in that situation 99% of the time.

ps. No whining about Hisec is going on. This is a discussion about the KR mechanism and how it is broken. Game mechanic discussions can go on without whining.
Raelyf
The Triangle
#267 - 2013-09-23 18:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Raelyf
Ganking is a broken mechanic. There, I said it.

I've been playing a very long time. I've been a ganker. I've lived in low-sec and been -10 for years. I know the best ways to avoid and/or survive ganks, and so I (nor my alts) have never been ganked. Short of shopping trips with an alt, I spend no time in high-sec and so I have no horse in this race.

Ganking is broken when a player like myself - with friends, alts, and experience - is safer in low-sec than in Jita.

The best way to avoid being ganked is to never fly anything that would be profitable to gank. Short of luls, spite or stupidity, it will not be worth a person's while to gank one of my ships. But the fact is, there is very little I could do to prevent being ganked in highsec were the right people dedicated to doing so.

H/T to the gankers, I will gladly acknowledge the following:
Highsec is not, and should not be, completely safe.
Ganking is hard; it takes skill and cooperation.
Ganking is not always profitable; the loot fairy is a fickle *****.
Ganking is avoidable; you are not carrying groceries. Make two ******* trips.
Ganking is a core part of EVE, and the game would be poorer without it.

Fundamentally, what is broken about ganking is a single flaw:
There is, effectively, no way to hurt a ganker.
Sure, they can lose isk through bad luck or poor decisions. But there is no viable way for me - either as vengeful victim, a concerned citizen, or because I enjoy shooting people - to intentionally inflict damage on a ganker.

Think about: ganking is literally the only profession in EVE that doesn't let me take **** in your cherios for a laugh in any meaningful way. And that is what I hate about it.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#268 - 2013-09-23 18:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Raelyf wrote:
Ganking is a broken mechanic. There, I said it.

I've been playing a very long time. I've been a ganker. I've lived in low-sec and been -10 for years. I know the best ways to avoid and/or survive ganks, and so I (nor my alts) have never been ganked. Short of shopping trips with an alt, I spend no time in high-sec and so I have no horse in this race.

Ganking is broken when a player like myself - with friends, alts, and experience - is safer in low-sec than in Jita.

The best way to avoid being ganked is to never fly anything that would be profitable to gank. Short of luls, spite or stupidity, it will not be worth a person's while to gank one of my ships. But the fact is, there is very little I could do to prevent being ganked in highsec were the right people dedicated to doing so.

H/T to the gankers, I will gladly acknowledge the following:
Highsec is not, and should not be, completely safe.
Ganking is hard; it takes skill and cooperation.
Ganking is not always profitable; the loot fairy is a fickle *****.
Ganking is avoidable; you are not carrying groceries. Make two ******* trips.
Ganking is a core part of EVE, and the game would be poorer without it.

Fundamentally, what is broken about ganking is a single flaw:
There is, effectively, no way to hurt a ganker.
Sure, they can lose isk through bad luck or poor decisions. But there is no viable way for me - either as vengeful victim, a concerned citizen, or because I enjoy shooting people - to intentionally inflict damage on a ganker.

Think about: ganking is literally the only profession in EVE that doesn't let me take **** in your cherios for a laugh in any meaningful way. And that is what I hate about it.


Quoted for truth and for the Facts as they stand.

This is what makes ganking too easy and Kill Rights broken.

I agree on every single point. The idea is to not make ganking impossible, the idea is a rebalancing of the KR mechanisms or other changes to *balance it a little bit* and to enable some kind of meaningful payback for those who are willing to track down the gankers.

The real carebears will whine and wring their hands and never use the KR mechanism like they do now. Those used to handling their own business will now have a tool that will allow them to do just that if it is rebalanced properly.

Every defender of ganking in this thread likes the status quo that makes them untouchable. Nothing they have posted makes this untrue.
Raelyf
The Triangle
#269 - 2013-09-23 19:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Raelyf
There are a lot of questions new players ask about EVE. Nearly all of them are given, overwhelming, especially in C&P, some variant on the same answer:

Get friends. Kill them.

What can I do about gate camps? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about pirates? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about war decs? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about other miners taking all my minerals? Get friends. Kill them.
etc.
etc.
etc.

But what can I do about gankers?
Run away.
Hide.
Avoid market hubs.
Mission/mine in quiet systems.
Tank your ship.
Don't fly anything expensive.
Don't fly anything worth more than the cost to gank you.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Notice the problem?
Get friends and kill them is EVE at it's core. It's what separates the good players from the scrubs. Ganking needs to be built to accommodate, not the other way around.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#270 - 2013-09-23 19:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Raelyf wrote:
There are a lot of questions new players ask about EVE. Nearly all of them are given, overwhelming, especially in C&P, some variant on the same answer:

Get friends. Kill them.

What can I do about gate camps? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about pirates? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about war decs? Get friends. Kill them.
What can I do about other miners taking all my minerals? Get friends. Kill them.
etc.
etc.
etc.

But what can I do about gankers?
Run away.
Hide.
Avoid market hubs.
Mission/mine in quiet systems.
Tank your ship.
Don't fly anything expensive.
Don't fly anything worth more than the cost to gank you.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Notice the problem?
Get friends and kill them is EVE at it's core. It's what separates the good players from the scrubs. Ganking needs to be built to accommodate, not the worth way around.


Precisely. In High Sec you cannot get friends and kill them, as Concord will defend them and you will be out a cost in ships and sec status greater than the gain. All you can do is run. You cannot war dec the gankers as the cost is simply not worth it to risk better ships waging war on Catalysts and Thrashers and Tornados.

This means that current game mechanics favor the Ganker in high sec. The best defense should not be "fly a crappy ship".

This is broken.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#271 - 2013-09-23 19:33:56 UTC
So, as you yourself have pointed out, your safer in lowsec. Honestly I need to ask you, why not go there? Mining is better, PI is better, you can defend yourself...

Is there any real benefit of staying in hisec?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#272 - 2013-09-23 19:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemon Ceed
No matter what you do, the OP's wish for revenge will not be satisfied and made whole by changes to game mechanics, rather player mentality and behaviors. Changes to killrights will make no difference whatsoever, as it has been clearly explained in previous posts. Pirates can be shot by anyone anywhere on sight without killrights. It merely takes someone with the motivation and testicular fortitude to do it.

Plainly put, if someone wants you dead and is motivated to see your corpse forcefully extracted from your pod, you're dead. If they need more gank ships to get it done, so be it. ISK be damned. This is what happened when they gave a modest EHP buff to Hulks. We just added more Catalysts to the gang. Simple. Your tears are worth far more than your loot or our losses.

Stop crying about how CCP needs to change something to fix a problem that can be resolved by not flying your ship like an anemic sorority chick who has had one too many wine coolers. Evolution gave you one of the most advanced brains in the animal kingdom. Use it. It's quite handy. HTFU.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#273 - 2013-09-23 20:08:16 UTC
Quote:
There is not the slightest misconception. Gratx on being the resident Baddie who goes from thread to thread to make himself feel like a bad man though.


Well, the sentence I am about to quote disproves that, but thanks for making this about me. Frankly, I like talking about me more than Toby Keith does, so this will be fun if we follow it to its logical conclusion.

Quote:
Try to stay on topic Skippy. Kill Rights exist to prevent ganking by people. They exist to create a chance at payback for "illegal acts" as defined by EVE programming.


Nope.

You are wrong about what killrights are for. And you are showing an entitlement mindset that you are in any way entitled to get even as a result.

Funny thing is, you've got a whole bunch of people besides me telling you that you're wrong about what killrights are for. It is so difficult to admit that you've got it wrong from the outset? Is being wrong that hurtful to you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#274 - 2013-09-23 20:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
There is not the slightest misconception. Gratx on being the resident Baddie who goes from thread to thread to make himself feel like a bad man though.


Well, the sentence I am about to quote disproves that, but thanks for making this about me. Frankly, I like talking about me more than Toby Keith does, so this will be fun if we follow it to its logical conclusion.

Quote:
Try to stay on topic Skippy. Kill Rights exist to prevent ganking by people. They exist to create a chance at payback for "illegal acts" as defined by EVE programming.


Nope.

You are wrong about what killrights are for. And you are showing an entitlement mindset that you are in any way entitled to get even as a result.

Funny thing is, you've got a whole bunch of people besides me telling you that you're wrong about what killrights are for. It is so difficult to admit that you've got it wrong from the outset? Is being wrong that hurtful to you?


The only people saying I'm wrong are the gankers. When you have a vested interest in denying that other people are right your opinion doesn't matter.

Though, I would likely get a laugh out of what your belief Kill Rights are supposed to be for.
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#275 - 2013-09-23 20:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Leto Thule wrote:
So, as you yourself have pointed out, your safer in lowsec. Honestly I need to ask you, why not go there? Mining is better, PI is better, you can defend yourself...

Is there any real benefit of staying in hisec?


Isk farming alts farm Isk.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#276 - 2013-09-23 20:21:21 UTC
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:


The only people saying I'm wrong are the gankers. When you have a vested interest in denying that other people are right your opinion doesn't matter.


Sir, I am not a ganker. I do, however think if we make any more changes to the flavor of ganking being nerfed, we will start to see them go away. While some would think thats a good thing, they provide a valuable portion of game content. I dont WANT to be able to fly around unafraid of losing my ship. Maybe thats just me.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Aldus Dumbledore
The Covenant of Blood
#277 - 2013-09-23 20:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldus Dumbledore
Leto Thule wrote:
Aldus Dumbledore wrote:


The only people saying I'm wrong are the gankers. When you have a vested interest in denying that other people are right your opinion doesn't matter.


Sir, I am not a ganker. I do, however think if we make any more changes to the flavor of ganking being nerfed, we will start to see them go away. While some would think thats a good thing, they provide a valuable portion of game content. I dont WANT to be able to fly around unafraid of losing my ship. Maybe thats just me.



There is not the slightest suggestion that anyone wants gankers to go entirely away. The suggestion is that it is currently too easy (no one has disproved this) and needs a balancing as this game is broken when we can see the same Tornados in Jita day after day after day.

The majority of gankers are low sec rejects that got tired of people being able to defend themselves. In High Sec, they don't have to worry about that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#278 - 2013-09-23 20:26:12 UTC
Quote:
Fundamentally, what is broken about ganking is a single flaw:
There is, effectively, no way to hurt a ganker.
Sure, they can lose isk through bad luck or poor decisions. But there is no viable way for me - either as vengeful victim, a concerned citizen, or because I enjoy shooting people - to intentionally inflict damage on a ganker.


I think you miss the point, though.

There are lots of things like this in the game. They mostly only exist when people take significant steps to mitigate the availability of response to what they do.

Scamming is a good example of this. Like most meta activity, there is little a "victim" can do to get back at them so long as the scammer maintains his guard, as it were.

Awoxing is another one. Typically it's done with disposable alts, and there is little recourse for the "victims", as long as the awoxer was smart about it in the first place.

Ganking is not an anomaly.

The thing is, that by accepting a series of limitations to your activity, you can mitigate most consequences so long as you stay within those restrictions. For gankers, it's that you can't fly very many ships that aren't fast enough to get away from faction police. Also, that all of your actions have to be suicidal, as well as limiting your targets to what you can destroy in about 20 seconds or less.

Ganking, scamming, awoxing, these are all meta activities. That's the real key here. This is not, nor has it ever been about mechanics.

It all comes down to the player and the actions they choose to take. Will you tank your mining vessel? Will you ask for api keys when you recruit? Will you take the chance that the buy order is legit?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

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MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#279 - 2013-09-23 20:50:18 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
they provide a valuable portion of game content.


That's disputable. In as much as it is akin to reaching out and randomly scattering your opponents pieces in a game of chess. Doesn't have much to do with 'the game' so to speak, and is not much more than simply being a git.

Sure, it happened on a chess board...but isn't "the game".

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#280 - 2013-09-23 23:31:02 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
they provide a valuable portion of game content.


That's disputable. In as much as it is akin to reaching out and randomly scattering your opponents pieces in a game of chess. Doesn't have much to do with 'the game' so to speak, and is not much more than simply being a git.

Sure, it happened on a chess board...but isn't "the game".

It is if your game of chess explicitly allows for such conduct. Which EVE does.

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