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Move wardec costs till after the war goes live
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Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-09-19 13:59:48 UTC
Wouldn't it make sense having the initial bill to wardec, wait till the 24 hours stasis is up and war goes live?
Or at least make players stick in corp the 24 hours till war goes live? That should give them at least 24 hours of war before they can continue their zero-to-no-cost corp creation.

Reason for this:

A dude sits in local, smacktalks about how awesome PVP'er he is, and generally behaves like a tool, and the second you wardec him to show him Eve has consequences, the following happens:

CEO's corp history:
CURRENT CORPORATION
Expendable Corporation 007 [EC007] from 2013.09.17 20:03 to this day

PREVIOUS CORPORATION(S)
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.17 20:02 to 2013.09.17 20:03.
Expendable Corporation 006 (Closed) from 2013.09.15 19:58 to 2013.09.17 20:02.
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.15 19:57 to 2013.09.15 19:58.
Expendable Corporation 005 (Closed) from 2013.09.15 17:49 to 2013.09.15 19:57.
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.15 17:49 to 2013.09.15 17:49.
Expendable Corporation 004 (Closed) from 2013.09.13 20:39 to 2013.09.15 17:49.
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.13 20:39 to 2013.09.13 20:39.
Expendable Corporation 003 (Closed) from 2013.09.12 22:12 to 2013.09.13 20:39.
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.12 22:10 to 2013.09.12 22:12.
Expendable Corporation 002 (Closed) from 2013.09.11 01:22 to 2013.09.12 22:10.
Deep Core Mining Inc. [DCMI] from 2013.09.11 01:20 to 2013.09.11 01:22.
Expendable Corporation 001 (Closed) from 2013.09.06 15:34 to 2013.09.11 01:20.
Misguided Marauders [MISGU] from 2013.08.20 05:15 to 2013.09.06 15:34.

Obviously, he is allowed to jump corp, fair game and within game rules.
But I get stuck with a 50 mil bill each time, and zero consequences for him, he can instantly just continue his business.
He could just go NPC corp, but I don't think he likes the 11% tax.

Not that I care about the warbill, its not a problem of isk, I just kept deccing his new corp to see how far this use of (failed) war mechanics will go, and obviously he will keep hopping forever and ever.

Obviously I will continue on my merry way, but why the option for wardecs if they costs large amounts of isks and targets can simply shrug it off?
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#2 - 2013-09-19 14:21:27 UTC
For every consequence in eve there are two ways to avoid it.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-09-19 16:43:11 UTC
Why would you continue deccing someone who keeps corp hopping? Just gank his ass

Bokononist

 
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-09-19 17:17:39 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Why would you continue deccing someone who keeps corp hopping? Just gank his ass


I know its impossible to force a person into war, and didnt expect better.
I do it to prove a point, and its kinda fun to see their corp history build up ..

Its not the "cheap riskfree fight" i'm after, tons of threads is already covering that, but the fact that I pay for a war, I never get.
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#5 - 2013-09-19 18:06:23 UTC
I offer a counter situation.

The guy smack-talking drops corp before the war goes live, but he wasn't the only person in it.

You still get your war, but not against your intended target. Here you are still getting your war, but there's still no consequence for the person you were after. This makes the situation essentially the same as far as your vengeance goes.

I could see having the war dec fee reversed if the corp closes before the war goes live, or maybe get some of it back if the corp closes in the first 24 hours or something like that.

However if the fee didn't come out till the war went live I could see people making disposable corps, dec'ing people, then dissolving their own corp before the war goes live to avoid paying the fee.

Once you war dec, you're committed, that's the point.

I think you do raise a point worth considering, but I don't think your proposal is a valid solution. Though why you would continue dec'ing after you see how he will respond, I do not know. Just put a bounty on him and be done with it.
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-09-19 19:26:00 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
Once you war dec, you're committed, that's the point.

I think you do raise a point worth considering, but I don't think your proposal is a valid solution. Though why you would continue dec'ing after you see how he will respond, I do not know. Just put a bounty on him and be done with it.


Once I war dec, I'm committed, thats exactly the problem. I am, he's not.
A war never has been intended as a "opt in" for both sides, so if its broken, it should be fixed, or completely removed.

I'm not aiming a person, I'm aiming his corp, so thats why bounty won't work.
Don't get me wrong though, I have given up on this war from day one, only reason I'm doing this is to prove that the current mechanic is broken, and how easy and obvious corp jumping is used to avoid wars, despite them being pretty costy these days.
CCP had plans for it, but assumed it "wouldn't be a concern that people could corp hop".

I don't expect them tied up and presented at station with giftwraps and such, but at least a 24 hour period or something for what I have paid the bill for, would be something at least.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-09-19 20:21:49 UTC
Seems to me that the guy is clearly winning every war against him. It's only a couple mill to open a new corp, versus the 50M cost inflicted on the attacker. Nice work by him.
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-09-22 14:02:47 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Seems to me that the guy is clearly winning every war against him. It's only a couple mill to open a new corp, versus the 50M cost inflicted on the attacker. Nice work by him.


Exactly the problem. I pay 50 mil, i get nothing because 1 minute later he is in a new corp, and the smack continues :-(
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-09-22 14:11:04 UTC
Zuni Jovakko wrote:
Exactly the problem. I pay 50 mil, i get nothing because 1 minute later he is in a new corp, and the smack continues :-(


I don't see the problem. It's a clever use of game mechanics to defeat you in a war.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#10 - 2013-09-22 20:36:48 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Zuni Jovakko wrote:
Exactly the problem. I pay 50 mil, i get nothing because 1 minute later he is in a new corp, and the smack continues :-(


I don't see the problem. It's a clever use of game mechanics to defeat you in a war.


Correct. OP is 'having fun' watching this guy's corp history grow. He's 'having fun' watching OP's wallet wither 50m at a time.
Luc Chastot
#11 - 2013-09-22 21:58:08 UTC
Well, you're already disrupting the activities of those you declare war on, so it makes more sense to have the fee be billed the moment you declare a war.

On the other hand, do you in all honesty believe that spending 300m to prove a point will convince CCP of changing anything? That's a bit naive. You could just as well have written this thread without going through the hassle.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Yolo
Unknown Nation
#12 - 2013-09-23 03:05:10 UTC
Would be interesting to be able to war-dec a character, just as we can wardec alliances and corporations.

But unlike today where a wardec is upgraded to the biggest entity, it should remain locked on the smalles object selected. Granted the corp/alliance can participate. But when a char moves corp, the wardec should follow and the same should apply when a war-decced corp moves from alliance to alliance.

- since 2003, bitches
Ben Houssa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-09-23 03:41:30 UTC
Imagine this: Corp A wardeccs Corp B. Corp B starts preparing for war, changing indies for BCs and BSs and take offline some stuff for more POS defence, convo peps for a specific hour and place, and after 24 hours, Corp A refuses to pay the bill so the war is annulled. Corp A does this indefinitely so they just bully people for free. A big NO to your proposal. The corp that wants the war should "bribe" (a.k.a. pay the bill) Concord in advance. The way it is now makes sense. Besides, you just said you were having "fun". That's what the game is about.

TL;DR: NO!

Crystal damage information in cargohold Increased contrast on Ice Planets
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-09-23 06:46:56 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Well, you're already disrupting the activities of those you declare war on, so it makes more sense to have the fee be billed the moment you declare a war.


I'm not disrupting anything, the 24 hour timer ensures they have plenty of time to create new corp. Its a 2 minute hassle, and they are on their merry way.

Luc Chastot wrote:
On the other hand, do you in all honesty believe that spending 300m to prove a point will convince CCP of changing anything? That's a bit naive. You could just as well have written this thread without going through the hassle.


Of course I dont expect CCP to change anything, but the issue is reported none the less.

I could just have written a whine about it without the dec, but then people could have claimed it was a coincidence they just changed corp at that time.

My dec is an example of the usage of the tactic in the purest form. There is no doubt that this being used extensively, his corp name even stated it (being Expendable corp X-Y), even in the corps bio.

With this dec history, noone can question the motives behind changing corp, and thats what the 300 mil was spent on.
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-09-23 06:52:59 UTC
Ben Houssa wrote:
Imagine this: Corp A wardeccs Corp B. Corp B starts preparing for war, changing indies for BCs and BSs and take offline some stuff for more POS defence, convo peps for a specific hour and place, and after 24 hours, Corp A refuses to pay the bill so the war is annulled. Corp A does this indefinitely so they just bully people for free. A big NO to your proposal. The corp that wants the war should "bribe" (a.k.a. pay the bill) Concord in advance. The way it is now makes sense. Besides, you just said you were having "fun". That's what the game is about.

TL;DR: NO!


I almost agree, but if they can close the corp in the 24 hour stasis period, the point of being able to wardec is gone.

My suggestion was either:
Have the war follow the new corp, IF its within the 24 hour stasis period
or
Simply make it impossible to create a new corp while a war is in stasis. Its a 24 hour period, nothing more, nothing less.

Granted that its impossible to dec the same corp twice in a week (as far as I know?) So you cant just keep stasis a corp forever.

If they decide to leave the corp while a war is outside of stasis/cooldown, its fair game. Its just the 24 hour window where they can just screw it, and leave the deccing part with a bill with zero consequence.

Hope that cleared up the issue.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#16 - 2013-09-23 06:57:01 UTC
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
For every consequence in eve there are two ways to avoid it.


you mean exploit not avoid

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#17 - 2013-09-23 06:59:02 UTC
or just gather up a gang of 1400 arti nados to suicide gank his dumb ass?
Ben Houssa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-09-23 08:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Houssa
Zuni Jovakko wrote:

My suggestion was either:
Have the war follow the new corp, IF its within the 24 hour stasis period
or
Simply make it impossible to create a new corp while a war is in stasis. Its a 24 hour period, nothing more, nothing less.

Granted that its impossible to dec the same corp twice in a week (as far as I know?) So you cant just keep stasis a corp forever.

If they decide to leave the corp while a war is outside of stasis/cooldown, its fair game. Its just the 24 hour window where they can just screw it, and leave the deccing part with a bill with zero consequence.

Hope that cleared up the issue.


Yes it does. You want to wage war against a single target, single person actually. Wars were not designed for that. 1v1 is called PvP, ganking, whatever. A war is supposed to involve multiple targets. It's like going into a bar, not liking someone's face and you throw a war declaration at him, not his country.

As the mechanics work now, if you dec a single man corp and that man leaves, you still get your war but against an empty corp. I'd say this is "as intended" :)

Also... if it's a 1 man corp, that person can decide not to play on main for a week and you'll still lose your money. Or he can station trade/scam/beg/whatever for a week and not leave station.

If the war follows the CEO from the wardec 24h period, someone could have 2 (or more) accounts in the corp and pass the CEOship to the second and leave the corp just to move the war "away". That would be BAD because when someone deccs a corp, they generally want targets from that corp, not a specific toon. There are corps with more than 1 person in it and your proposal would affect them too in many ways.

Besides, when someone leaves a player owned corp they get in a NPC corp and they cannot be decced. How do you propose the "war-follows-the CEO" to work?

Just think it like this. To gank the guy you'll lose 10-20mils (maybe) in lost ship+fittings if in high-sec. Wardec is 50 mils/week so I'd say gank him if he/she annoys you that much. You can gank him 3-4 times for that money. Yes, you'd lose a bit of security as well but that should not be a problem if it chills your heels.

Maybe it's better to draft a proposal for a new type of "bribery"/whatever so that CONCORD would not interfere when you want to go after a single toon for a limited period of time. I don't know how that would work but if you're that interested in that, imagine the ropes and screws to make it work and post it in a new thread. Maybe I'll support that if it's well thought. Just leave wars the way they are for the moment.

Crystal damage information in cargohold Increased contrast on Ice Planets
Zuni Jovakko
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-09-23 10:31:59 UTC
Ben Houssa wrote:
Yes it does. You want to wage war against a single target, single person actually. Wars were not designed for that. 1v1 is called PvP, ganking, whatever. A war is supposed to involve multiple targets. It's like going into a bar, not liking someone's face and you throw a war declaration at him, not his country.

Actually the example corp is a 3 man corp, and they all move along. If I was targetting a single person, I would use ganking instead.

The mechanic for jumping corp in the 24 hour stasis period is same with 1 man corps and 100 man corps. Everyone can still, jump corp with zero consequence. However impractical it may be.

I agree with your "as intended" with 1 man corps, but this "avoiding wars just changing corps" method works fine for bigger corps (Although impractical the larger the corp).

My formulation is weak on the "follow corp", I mean to follow the parties implicated:

Person A - B - C is in corp 1, A is CEO. They get decced.
1 minute after the dec is initiated (and 24 hours before fights starts), the following happens:
A leaves corp, forms a new one: corp 2
B leaves corp directing into corp 2
C leaves corp, going to NPC corp

Today, 1 minute after the dec is initiated and the initial bill is paid, ABC is free.

My suggestion would be that the wars follow:

Solution 1:
A - B -C is "personally at war" for 24 hours, despite whatever corp they are in.
Obviously the concept of "personal wars" is not implemented and is a huge change to the current mechanics, so this option is kinda far fetched.

Solution 2:
Noone leaves a corp within the stasis+cooldown period of a war.
This will mean A B C is rejected from leaving current corp till the war go live, and 24 hours after this (a usual cooldown period).
This should be easier to implement than 1, will ensure the war gets at least 24 hours of meaning and value for the bill.

Solution 3:
You can't create / join a new corp within 3-7 days after your last "corp at war" quit.

The concept is not to force wars upon those who don't want it in the first place, but to give the "war dec + bill" a value for those who pay the bill.

Feedback?
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-09-23 14:34:09 UTC
Ben Houssa wrote:
Imagine this: Corp A wardeccs Corp B. Corp B starts preparing for war, changing indies for BCs and BSs and take offline some stuff for more POS defence, convo peps for a specific hour and place, and after 24 hours, Corp A refuses to pay the bill so the war is annulled. Corp A does this indefinitely so they just bully people for free. A big NO to your proposal. The corp that wants the war should "bribe" (a.k.a. pay the bill) Concord in advance. The way it is now makes sense. Besides, you just said you were having "fun". That's what the game is about.

TL;DR: NO!


If you aren't willing to fight back then you deserve to be bullied.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
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