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[ISODE] Live coverage of the Mantenault Referendum
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James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#121 - 2013-09-21 21:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


If you test me, you will fail.

Tread very carefully, fate is fickle mistress.


Fate? Well, in any case, as a married man I give all mistresses, fickle or otherwise, a wide berth.

Well I wondered why you are overly grumpy of late, now I know.

But back to business. My comment wasn't a threat Pieter, it was a plea.

Tread carefully.

After all we wouldn't want anything nasty to happen to "innocent" Caldari civilian populations now would we.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#122 - 2013-09-21 21:34:14 UTC
Augustus Inhonores wrote:
The Elusenian Directorate has communicated the above developments to the Agora, where our position in Mantenault will be re-assessed over the course of the next twenty-four hours. Elusenia remains committed to upholding the indigenous political order regardless of planet or star system, and doubly so is it committed to its honourable agreements forged with foreign states, as we have with Mantenault VI. At the same time, Elusenia must equally remain committed to our policy of neutrality. We express dismay at the duplicity of Pyre-Falcon's intentions as exhibited by the dissonant postings put forward by Colonel Pieter Tuulinen and Executor Veikitamo Gesakaarin, and hope that wiser thoughts will prevail.

Director-General Augustus Inhonores
Cooperative Republic of Elusenia


There is no dissonance or duplicity in my statements when I have already made my intentions clear in Section VI of the following press release on 18 June YC 115, available here.

My position and goals have not changed since that date, M. Inhonores.

But permit me to indulge you, do you believe I have changed them given what I have expressed in this communique?

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#123 - 2013-09-21 22:08:14 UTC
Augustus Inhonores wrote:
The Elusenian Directorate has communicated the above developments to the Agora, where our position in Mantenault will be re-assessed over the course of the next twenty-four hours. Elusenia remains committed to upholding the indigenous political order regardless of planet or star system, and doubly so is it committed to its honourable agreements forged with foreign states, as we have with Mantenault VI. At the same time, Elusenia must equally remain committed to our policy of neutrality. We express dismay at the duplicity of Pyre-Falcon's intentions as exhibited by the dissonant postings put forward by Colonel Pieter Tuulinen and Executor Veikitamo Gesakaarin, and hope that wiser thoughts will prevail.

Director-General Augustus Inhonores
Cooperative Republic of Elusenia


I'm the hound and she's the leash - what's unusual about this relationship that it confounds you so? My job is to prepare for the worst and hers is to see that it doesn't happen.

You are supposed to find them dissonant and you are supposed to want to deal with her , so that you needn't deal with me.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Augustus Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#124 - 2013-09-21 22:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Augustus Inhonores
Thank you for bringing this press release to our attention. The contents will influence our deliberation in the upcoming Protevousa session.

We would like to clarify elements of Article VI, which states the following;

Quote:
Non-compliance by any persons of a selected world with the outlined articles of Martial Law will result in their designation as an enemy combatant.


What defines non-compliance? On what moral basis can Pyre-Falcon justify designating civilians as enemy combatants on this nebulous concept of 'non-compliance'? Generally speaking, enemy combatants are members of opposing national militaries or armed insurgents.

This element, combined with the complete non-recognition of indigenous human and legal rights, makes the occurrence of war crimes on your part a very real possibility.

Director-General Inhonores

Addendum: The duplicity, Colonel Tuulinen, is your supposed moral intentions standing in opposition to your Executor's complete disregard for ethical concerns.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2013-09-21 22:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Director-General Inhonores - you deployed into the warzone where today's legally mandated authorities are tomorrows rogue administrations. The situation is fluid and it is highly dangerous. Deploying your forces into such a situation was, if you'll forgive me, a mistake - as was signing a deal with a planetary government thinking that they get to dictate the loyalties of the entire system.

The Caldari State is the de jure authority in the system of Mantenault - until such time as the FDU changes the situation. All I'm asking is that if push comes to shove, you stand on the side of law and order and not play the game of petty nationalistic politics.

Is it ridiculous that the control of systems can be flipped so frequently? Yes.
Is it regrettable that the indigenous population are the ones who must pay the consequences? Yes.
Is it insane that this is the way that the CEWPA warzone works? Yes.

But this is THE LAW. Pyre Falcon has and will always operate within it - and according to the directives of our shareholders. We have almost a years experience of dealing with nothing BUT CEWPA law and our boss is an ex-corporate lawyer. If you really want to mix it up with us then roll the dice - but remember who pays the bill.

The people whose interests YOU are supposed to be defending.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#126 - 2013-09-21 22:27:10 UTC
If you're going to throw out statements like "de jure", Tuulinen, you should probably actually know what that means. The Federation nor the locals will not recognize Caldari ownership, and the system has been Federation territory for far longer than all State occupations of the system combined. I think you mean "de facto", and then again, only in space. Both planets remain Federation territory.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2013-09-21 22:37:15 UTC
No, Seriphyn. DE JURE - concerning LAW. The Federation signed the CEWPA legislation into law and agreed to be bound by it. All four Empires, in fact, did.

Which I might know a LITTLE bit more about than you, since I started training in that field at the age of five.

De Facto authority would suggest that the State's mandate derives from nothing more than landing some poorly armed and equipped paramilitary forces on the planet. As it is, lawyers are looking into what the control of planetary districts actually means in this case - since the official contestation of them is rather new legislation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-09-21 23:18:26 UTC
Augustus Inhonores wrote:

What defines non-compliance? On what moral basis can Pyre-Falcon justify designating civilians as enemy combatants on this nebulous concept of 'non-compliance'? Generally speaking, enemy combatants are members of opposing national militaries or armed insurgents.


The moral basis of Martial Law is usually to be found not in a textbook, but in what an military organization deems to be the law. If and when AR&P operations are conducted in Federal or Republic territories by Pyre Falcon Defence Combine, it will consider the territory it occupies during such operations as its own. It will outline the articles of that law to the local populace in a designated zone of occupation. These laws are designed to ensure the safety of both civilians and corporate assets in a military zone. Failure to comply with those articles will lead to designations as enemy combatants due to presenting clear and present security risks to corporate personnel.

As for war crimes. Present me with the legal documents you believe that defines what war crimes are and which Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is signatory to.

Note: I don't operate under the laws or rules of the Gallente Federation.

Have a nice day, M. Inhonores


Kurilaivonen|Concern
Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
#129 - 2013-09-22 00:32:01 UTC
Two points to the honourable spokespersons for Pyre-Falcon.

Firstly, I would like to reiterate earlier facts which place all planets in the Mantenault system under the full and complete control of Federate authorities, and while that is subject to change, the legal transfer of sovereign authority on the planet as allowed by the referendum did occur under these circumstances.

There was none of that 'democracy stuff' happening under Caldari occupied sectors of Mantenault VI, simply because no such areas existed.

Secondly, I would like to direct the Pyre-Falcon personnel to their own addendums, wherein they specifically note support mechanisms for the Kaalakiota, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi corporations. Since then-Executor Tibus Heth revoked the developmental rights over Federate systems, none of those corporations retain effective control over our systems without the full and freely given consent of their native Gallentean populations, as is the case in the Intaki-Ishukone arrangement.

Under VI, the section in which you directed us to, your rules of engagement do not apply for entities not controlled by the proscribed corporations. It must be followed then that the CPD, and now whatever overarching authority maintains control over the development rights, is not in and of itself one of those corporations and thereby outside of Pyre-Falcon's own stated engagement parameters.

After all, implementing Kaalakiota martial law on a planet which, even under Caldari law, may not be owned by Kaalakiota anymore may be a massive oversight which could result in a massive reputational hit for Pyre-Falcon. Talk about a public and massive mistake waiting to happen.

The article, requiring a specific reading, notes Mantenault as being a system under the control of one of the aforementioned corporations. Where Mantenault no longer meets the criteria of being controlled by Kaalakiota, I would assert that Pyre-Falcon would be in breach of this section of its share-holder agreement if it were to undertake military action against the Federate-controlled Mantenault VI, notwithstanding any other sections of the agreement with authorize the use of force under other circumstances.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2013-09-22 00:35:46 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

But back to business. My comment wasn't a threat Pieter, it was a plea.

Tread carefully.

After all we wouldn't want anything nasty to happen to "innocent" Caldari civilian populations now would we.


Since you said it was a plea, I'll take it as that and not a threat. After all, I already have Corporate rules of engagement and State rules of war and the terms of the CEWPA legislation as well as general rules on armed conflict and what constitutes war crimes. It's not like I would have a free hand even if my tastes ran to the wholesale slaughter of civilians.

Obviously any large scale deaths of Caldari Personnel will be looked at carefully and the perpetrators identified. Capsuleers being what they are, if the perpetrators were a faction of, say, criminals - I wouldn't be surprised if some public minded citizen killed fifty of them for every dead Caldari.

I hear this sort of thing happens all the time.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#131 - 2013-09-22 01:24:00 UTC
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:
Two points to the honourable spokespersons for Pyre-Falcon.

Firstly, I would like to reiterate earlier facts which place all planets in the Mantenault system under the full and complete control of Federate authorities, and while that is subject to change, the legal transfer of sovereign authority on the planet as allowed by the referendum did occur under these circumstances.

There was none of that 'democracy stuff' happening under Caldari occupied sectors of Mantenault VI, simply because no such areas existed.

Secondly, I would like to direct the Pyre-Falcon personnel to their own addendums, wherein they specifically note support mechanisms for the Kaalakiota, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi corporations. Since then-Executor Tibus Heth revoked the developmental rights over Federate systems, none of those corporations retain effective control over our systems without the full and freely given consent of their native Gallentean populations, as is the case in the Intaki-Ishukone arrangement.

Under VI, the section in which you directed us to, your rules of engagement do not apply for entities not controlled by the proscribed corporations. It must be followed then that the CPD, and now whatever overarching authority maintains control over the development rights, is not in and of itself one of those corporations and thereby outside of Pyre-Falcon's own stated engagement parameters.

After all, implementing Kaalakiota martial law on a planet which, even under Caldari law, may not be owned by Kaalakiota anymore may be a massive oversight which could result in a massive reputational hit for Pyre-Falcon. Talk about a public and massive mistake waiting to happen.

The article, requiring a specific reading, notes Mantenault as being a system under the control of one of the aforementioned corporations. Where Mantenault no longer meets the criteria of being controlled by Kaalakiota, I would assert that Pyre-Falcon would be in breach of this section of its share-holder agreement if it were to undertake military action against the Federate-controlled Mantenault VI, notwithstanding any other sections of the agreement with authorize the use of force under other circumstances.


Your argument hinges on an abstruse facet of Caldari Law - a current grey area that the CBT and the CEP haven't ruled on. Were you to take the matter to court, you would have to posit that a Federation loyal government was a better and more natural ruler of a Caldari State system than a Caldari corporation.

You'll need good lawyers and EVEN if you somehow found an argument so compelling that the CBT ruled in your favour, their ruling would STILL not apply to the period before it came into effect.

Come on. I'm sure the CEWPA war will end someday (and the sooner the better) but it won't be ended on a technicality raised by a politician on a backwater planet in the warzone. Do you really think you can stop the fighting with a loophole?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#132 - 2013-09-22 01:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

But back to business. My comment wasn't a threat Pieter, it was a plea.

Tread carefully.

After all we wouldn't want anything nasty to happen to "innocent" Caldari civilian populations now would we.


Since you said it was a plea, I'll take it as that and not a threat. After all, I already have Corporate rules of engagement and State rules of war and the terms of the CEWPA legislation as well as general rules on armed conflict and what constitutes war crimes. It's not like I would have a free hand even if my tastes ran to the wholesale slaughter of civilians.

Obviously any large scale deaths of Caldari Personnel will be looked at carefully and the perpetrators identified. Capsuleers being what they are, if the perpetrators were a faction of, say, criminals - I wouldn't be surprised if some public minded citizen killed fifty of them for every dead Caldari.

I hear this sort of thing happens all the time.

Indeed it does, vengeance is a common enough thing. I just had a difficult conversation with a friend about that very topic.

But I am glad that your "tastes" are otherwise. Accountability is a healthy thing when everyone understands the ramifications of their actions.

So I am very glad at least "we" understand each other.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2013-09-22 02:19:25 UTC
I think we do, Mister Sygarius.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#134 - 2013-09-22 04:25:40 UTC
One. Obviously, given Ishukone's continued presence in Intaki, among other areas, the CEP has decided that Tibus Heth's attempt to revoke mega-corp rights in Gallente space is a non-starter.

Two. Even if you think that the word of Tibus Heth should have carried some weight, he's gone. We, the Megas, will do as we damn well please.

Three. The Gallente conducted a scorched earth policy (as noted in CONCORD sources) in Black Rise, including killings of Caldari civilians. So they can shut the **** up about "human rights".

Four. The best course of action for Caldari forces in occupied systems is the complete destruction of all industrial, agricultural, and commercial viability, preferring to ship assets to the State if possible, and then a complete hands-off policy. This will force the Federation to support colonies with material that could otherwise be used for war purposes.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#135 - 2013-09-22 09:39:15 UTC
If someone could politely direct me to a digital copy of the CEWPA that the four nations signed I would greatly appreciate it.

No? Damn.

-Eran
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#136 - 2013-09-22 10:39:03 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
To the Attention of Mantenault Representatives,

It is the understanding of Ishuk-Raata that while the Gallente Federation maintains sovereignty over Mantenault, the system has fallen into the hands of the State Protectorate. While we wholly understand your reluctance to submit to the oversight of Caldari authorities for the time being, Ishuk-Raata would like to remind you that doing so peaceably is in the best interests of everybody.

It has been shown on many related worlds both in Placid and Black Rise that a peaceful arrangement of power-transfer between Federate and State representatives based on Occupancy has resulted in drastic improvements for quality of life and productivity. We understand that such issues can be difficult to work out during sensitive times such as these, where you are currently undergoing an election period, but resisting occupation will only result in open conflict.


The answer is no. We never asked for this war, and any foreign occupation will be met with force. We may not have the support of clone troopers and fancy toys, but we have the support of the population, and fight on our terms.

Also, the State can only claim so far space control, but that is an entirely different matter on the ground.

If you think that we will bend just because we were unfortunate enough to live in a low security colonial world that just happened to be included in a war zone decided by careerist politicians living in Villore ivory towers, you are gravely mistaken. We are not afraid of open conflict, since it is the only thing that we have experienced for the last years.

Unlike Caldari bigots caring for a world they lost centuries ago, this world is still ours and populated by our families. We will not let the same thing happen here as long as a single one of us stands.

Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Capsuleers are fickle, and until proper State authorities can arrive on the scene to initiate power transfer, you will only be dealing with capsuleers. Both those under the employ of the Inhonores family and Pyre Falcon are currently jockeying for control of your world, at the expense of your world. Conflict and violence is not the neccesary end to this situation. It is not the only outcome.

To that point, Ishuk-Raata would like to strongly encourage the Seated Authorities of Mantenault to submit peacefully to the occupancy of State authorities. Complete your elections if possible, and doubly-quickly. Refrain from power posturing and chestbeating, as that may only inspire the wrath of Pyre-Falcon. They are professionals, and will not hesitate to conduct what business they know best: War. Should it be determined that Mantenault will not accept occupancy, they will intervene on behalf of Kaalakiota for better or worse.

This is not a threat. This is not an ultimatum. This is a warning that should you meet warriors with your weapons drawn, you will find they are more than eager to reply in kind.

Consider the peaceful alternative, and send your diplomats to arrange a peaceful resolution to the occupancy issue.


The only reason PYRE lapdogs are making open threats of intervention is because our world somehow ended up in the public spotlight. Without that ludicrous farce of an election, they would never have done or said anything, and would still be fighting in their spaceships against FDU forces as they are trained to do.

We can cope with a space occupation like it has already been the case a few times already, but any ground invasion will be met with force as it has always been the case.
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#137 - 2013-09-22 11:24:27 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


No need to be so upset, dear, the Provists are no longer with the State.

You are correct in some cases however that operational doctrines regarding the occupation of Federal territories was in error. Personally I would promote a different course of action. Simply utilize an effective hostage collar system. I would say it's proven that acts of civil disobedience, dissent against lawful authority, and acts of terrorism or sabotage are significantly reduced when the consequences are retaliatory activations of such systems. The threat of loved ones facing decapitation via shaped explosive charges is a fantastic incentive to maintain the compliance of colonial populations.

However, these are merely hypothetical thoughts, current capabilities of my organization are insufficient to maintain long-term occupation of Mantenault.

If this fact does change in future, then indeed, I would very much look forward to a long, productive, and prosperous relationship between myself and the people of the Mantenault system.


If someday you are ready to make these hypothetical thoughts a reality, and to resort to barbarian methods, then you shall pray the Maker for what will happen to the few unfortunates of your soldiers that might end up under the hands of the people here.

We can show honour, but if you are unable to do the same in return, then you will be treated like the honourless pigs that you are.

Let's see how the so called honourable Pieter Tuulinen will do when faced with such orders from his boss. This will surely be interesting to watch. Whatever his choice, he loses face.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#138 - 2013-09-22 14:14:55 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:

Unlike Caldari bigots caring for a world they lost centuries ago, this world is still ours and populated by our families.


I think you could have done without that line there. Calling every Caldari who cares about Home (which would include myself) "bigots" is a remarkably ignorant and offensive statement.

I had expected better.

As for the rest of your statement, it is a fair and not altogether unexpected response. I can respect that, and do wish the citizens of Mantenault luck.

Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#139 - 2013-09-22 15:55:41 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
If someone could politely direct me to a digital copy of the CEWPA that the four nations signed I would greatly appreciate it.

No? Damn.

-Eran



Do your own damn Galnet searches, or get your paid administrative staff to look it up for you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-09-22 16:03:58 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:
If someday you are ready to make these hypothetical thoughts a reality, and to resort to barbarian methods, then you shall pray the Maker for what will happen to the few unfortunates of your soldiers that might end up under the hands of the people here.

We can show honour, but if you are unable to do the same in return, then you will be treated like the honourless pigs that you are.

Let's see how the so called honourable Pieter Tuulinen will do when faced with such orders from his boss. This will surely be interesting to watch. Whatever his choice, he loses face.


He'll expect you to adhere to the demands that intergalactic law place on you, as he will adhere to their demands on him. He'll do his duty, as he sees it, to the best of his ability. And he will have absolutely ZERO tolerance for those who break the law or commit acts of barbarity on the people under his protection.

For a start I'll only be landing on soil that is legally controlled by the Caldari State. Whether you 'like it' or not - you live in the CEWPA warzone with all the folly that this entails. Don't like it? I suggest you spend less time and energy on inflammatory local politics and give your Senator a good kicking. Do I have to make this point a hundred times? CEWPA is GALLENTE law - not just State Law.

Now, do you have any specific accusations to make regarding my actions in the past?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.