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Cerberus Rebalance

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Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#21 - 2013-09-12 15:54:31 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Cerberus still gimped? Mate the Cerb is now the most powerful HAC out there. Mad DPS and range with HAMS? Check. RLML Caracal on steroids? Check. Amazing cap life for ability to kite? Check.
If anything the Cerb was taken too far. But hell, I like it Twisted


I just have to know, what sort of dps are you getting out of the Cerb and could you provide an example fit? I have been trying to find a reason to use one and had hoped the HAC rebalance would give me that, but what I have come up with so far just ends up underwhelming...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#22 - 2013-09-12 16:34:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Really, give HMLs back their damage and they are more or less fine compared to rails and beams now.

While I will say that the Cerb changes went a bit too far, I will disagree with giving HMLs their old stats back.

There are a couple of reasons for this;
For starters, IIRC they are still the longest range *medium class* weapon with the best damage.
No other ship can match them. Sure the other ones have more damage up close, but nothing competes with HMLs at range...


Then why is no one using them for PvP any more?


I'd rather have nobody using them than everybody using them again What?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#23 - 2013-09-12 20:40:45 UTC
I think there were plans for modules that boost missile stats "missile tracking computer" or something like that. Although I would not hold my breath over this getting released in the immediate future.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#24 - 2013-09-13 06:03:32 UTC
I think missile tracking computers would be quite OP.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-09-13 13:32:43 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
It's not just the Cerb that is 'meh' with HMLs, the whole weapon system has gone to the shitter compared to other options.


It's a frustrating situation. HMs were nerfed because they were 'too good' compared to other long range weapons systems. Other long range weapons systems get a buff, and HMs are left bleeding out in the dirt.

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Ariel Dawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-09-13 14:26:17 UTC
Cerberus is ridiculously powerful with the new Genolution set (fit taken from another forum)

Internal Force Field Array I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II x2

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II x6

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

HAMs still do ~200-240 DPS on small sig frigates in this config, shield tankers and bigger targets near 700, it's a damn powerful ship now and fast to boot.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-09-13 19:32:11 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Cerberus is ridiculously powerful with the new Genolution set (fit taken from another forum)

Internal Force Field Array I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II x2

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II x6

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

HAMs still do ~200-240 DPS on small sig frigates in this config, shield tankers and bigger targets near 700, it's a damn powerful ship now and fast to boot.



the issue is most other weapons have the other weapons system work almost as well. AC and arty for example...good either way. In the past all I used hml cerb for was falcon sniping. Its good at it....but when shooting a wet paper bag tanked ship that paper bag makes any weapon look good. Cerb's hook was it was out of falcon range.

When I x-trained minmatar however...I got a decent ac vaga and arty muninn to play with based on need and mood.
Lumpymayo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-09-14 03:36:17 UTC
Any thoughts about the 10% bonus to flight time being changed to 10% bonus to missile velocity per heavy assault cruiser level?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-09-14 05:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Cerberus is ridiculously powerful with the new Genolution set (fit taken from another forum)

Internal Force Field Array I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II x2

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Dread Guristas Warp Disruptor
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II x6

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

HAMs still do ~200-240 DPS on small sig frigates in this config, shield tankers and bigger targets near 700, it's a damn powerful ship now and fast to boot.


I'm the one that posted that, and the current prices on Geno CA-3 and CA-4 means this doesn't really work. I posted it as a potentially very cheap and super-effective fit, as nothing in this fit costs anything except for the T2 rigs.

With CA-3 and CA-4 costing what they do now, you can do this fit with snake implants instead and have a much better result, just swap the polycarb for another ACR and use faction BCSs. Yeah, it costs shitloads of ISK, but so do the CA-3 and CA-4 implants. If you're not going to get podded, snakes are better, and if you are going to get podded, then neither snakes nor this fit is affordable.

If CA-3 and CA-4 prices ever come down to the level of the other two, though, then this is a monster, as it's cheap to fit and fly, with only one 10m ISK faction mod on it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-09-15 20:39:49 UTC
Berendas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Really, give HMLs back their damage and they are more or less fine compared to rails and beams now.

While I will say that the Cerb changes went a bit too far, I will disagree with giving HMLs their old stats back.

There are a couple of reasons for this;
For starters, IIRC they are still the longest range *medium class* weapon with the best damage.
No other ship can match them. Sure the other ones have more damage up close, but nothing competes with HMLs at range...


Then why is no one using them for PvP any more?


I'd rather have nobody using them than everybody using them again What?


There's little chance of that happening. The "Drake Blob" syndrome was due mostly to the effects of very poor server performance making the counters to Drakes ineffective. Even if HMLs were just as they used to be, we wouldn't see Drake Blobs dominating like we used to, because the counters are effective and the server works far better. Frankly, even before the HML got nerfed, Drake fleets had largely disappeared already, but the hysteria was so vocal by then that the nerf went ahead anyway.

It's also worth remembering that in the meantime, battleships have been greatly buffed, and can also use the micro jump drive. The Drake can't remotely match the MJD and drakefleets are horrifyingly vulnerable to short-range/MJD BS doctrines.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-09-15 21:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
You either homogenise everything, or have things working against each other
im not sure CCP know which way they want to go atm..



Cerberus with RLML's does unspeakably horrible things to those small fast pesky frigates btw.
The only other fitting option is HAM's
because HML's extend past point/web range, and are therefore redundant

none of this is actually ccp's fault, it's ours

CCP designed a whole bunch of ships with specific specialised functions
and then we the player base turn round and say .. sorry ccp but if doesn't have point, web & prop mod it's a sh!t fit
we homogenise the ship classes by using generalised 1 sized fits all loadouts, and then complain that the game is flat & stale.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#32 - 2013-09-16 07:38:02 UTC
Quote:
CCP designed a whole bunch of ships with specific specialised functions
and then we the player base turn round and say .. sorry ccp but if doesn't have point, web & prop mod it's a sh!t fit
we homogenise the ship classes by using generalised 1 sized fits all loadouts, and then complain that the game is flat & stale.


I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. Players fit ships to be as good/efficient as possible at the application they want them for.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-16 14:09:56 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
You either homogenise everything, or have things working against each other
im not sure CCP know which way they want to go atm..



Cerberus with RLML's does unspeakably horrible things to those small fast pesky frigates btw.
The only other fitting option is HAM's
because HML's extend past point/web range, and are therefore redundant

none of this is actually ccp's fault, it's ours

CCP designed a whole bunch of ships with specific specialised functions
and then we the player base turn round and say .. sorry ccp but if doesn't have point, web & prop mod it's a sh!t fit
we homogenise the ship classes by using generalised 1 sized fits all loadouts, and then complain that the game is flat & stale.



This post tells it all. Nice short reading +1

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-09-16 17:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Quote:
CCP designed a whole bunch of ships with specific specialised functions
and then we the player base turn round and say .. sorry ccp but if doesn't have point, web & prop mod it's a sh!t fit
we homogenise the ship classes by using generalised 1 sized fits all loadouts, and then complain that the game is flat & stale.


I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. Players fit ships to be as good/efficient as possible at the application they want them for.



nope

they fit for
point, web & prop, regardless of purpose. (the fit must have these at all times or your a stupid lowlife scrub that needs to biomass and go back to playing hello kitty online)
now your allowed to fit some dps and what ever tank you can squeeze into the remaining cpu/pg

pvp fits are generic, homogenised and mostly uninspired
if you try thinking outside the box, your ridiculed and ostracised
its all about the lowest common factor



please note, the bracketed comment is not a statement about you, its my general view of the regular generic pvp'ers mindset/thought process on fittings
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#35 - 2013-09-20 10:27:50 UTC
At least half the server is running with specialized tackle / reps and maxed dps/tank ration only on the other ships.

So you should rethink your dogma imo.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-09-20 12:34:35 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

the issue is most other weapons have the other weapons system work almost as well. AC and arty for example...good either way. In the past all I used hml cerb for was falcon sniping. Its good at it....but when shooting a wet paper bag tanked ship that paper bag makes any weapon look good. Cerb's hook was it was out of falcon range.

When I x-trained minmatar however...I got a decent ac vaga and arty muninn to play with based on need and mood.


^ This, as getting it across to missile numpties is the PITA it has always been. Medium range weapons.

Blasters - you have to be humping the target.
Rails - you have to work out traversal, or hold the target still.

Autos - you have to at least get inside 10k to do high dps, holding down target - falloff kills the DPS as you get range.
Artillery - get traversal right, or hold target still. Optimal is crap for high DPS - 20k, so imagine its 20% less and dropping as you get range - forget looking at fking EFT.

Pulse - decent range, but worse tracking. Traversal is an issue close up.
Beams - see artillery - once out of optimal it getting to zero dps fast.

HAM - shorter range but ALWAYS hit, Speed is a concern, hold it still.
HML - superb range, they ALWAYS HIT. Speed is a concern, hold the target still.

In all cases - sig radius of target has significant effect on dps. In all cases, you need to have the target tackled to make good use of short range weapons, and moreso for long range weapons.

If I am using artillery and tring to web/scram a target then im '****ed'. I WILL NOT HIT IT. Same for beams and rails. The slightest mistake flying means I fail - THATS WHAT MISSILE USERS MISS.

You have to fly the ship - not just orbit.
You have to tackle it, or have someone tackle it, using webs, painters etc. Long range then works.

If you want balance - then make artillery and rails and beams and autos and blasters and pulse always hit.



ARGHHHHHHHHH - I hate noobs who use missiles and moan. Try being a noob with rails or beams.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#37 - 2013-09-20 14:24:27 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:

the issue is most other weapons have the other weapons system work almost as well. AC and arty for example...good either way. In the past all I used hml cerb for was falcon sniping. Its good at it....but when shooting a wet paper bag tanked ship that paper bag makes any weapon look good. Cerb's hook was it was out of falcon range.

When I x-trained minmatar however...I got a decent ac vaga and arty muninn to play with based on need and mood.


^ This, as getting it across to missile numpties is the PITA it has always been. Medium range weapons.

Blasters - you have to be humping the target.
Rails - you have to work out traversal, or hold the target still.

Autos - you have to at least get inside 10k to do high dps, holding down target - falloff kills the DPS as you get range.
Artillery - get traversal right, or hold target still. Optimal is crap for high DPS - 20k, so imagine its 20% less and dropping as you get range - forget looking at fking EFT.

Pulse - decent range, but worse tracking. Traversal is an issue close up.
Beams - see artillery - once out of optimal it getting to zero dps fast.

HAM - shorter range but ALWAYS hit, Speed is a concern, hold it still.
HML - superb range, they ALWAYS HIT. Speed is a concern, hold the target still.

In all cases - sig radius of target has significant effect on dps. In all cases, you need to have the target tackled to make good use of short range weapons, and moreso for long range weapons.

If I am using artillery and tring to web/scram a target then im '****ed'. I WILL NOT HIT IT. Same for beams and rails. The slightest mistake flying means I fail - THATS WHAT MISSILE USERS MISS.

You have to fly the ship - not just orbit.
You have to tackle it, or have someone tackle it, using webs, painters etc. Long range then works.

If you want balance - then make artillery and rails and beams and autos and blasters and pulse always hit.



ARGHHHHHHHHH - I hate noobs who use missiles and moan. Try being a noob with rails or beams.


Again for the second time in this thread: Half the server allready has at least one char with enough SP to have near perfect gunnery and missiles and thus discuss balance having played with both systems extensively. To approach balance with the mindset : "I will now show you why my weapon system needs more love than yours" is utter phail and we moved past it sometime in 2005 - 2006.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-09-22 10:53:05 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:

HAM - shorter range but ALWAYS hit, Speed is a concern, hold it still.
HML - superb range, they ALWAYS HIT. Speed is a concern, hold the target still.

You say this like it's dead easy. Slowing a target down is harder than reducing transversal. Good flying can reduce transversal, and webbing does too. Good flying will not slow the target down - you have to use webs.

Also, while it's true that missiles always hit (except when they don't, because the target outruns them or runs them out of range), they often do very little damage. At least when guns hit they hit solidly.
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