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Why does Covert-ops Cloaking device deactivate immediately on disconnect?

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#21 - 2013-09-19 14:34:51 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Safe Logoff timer is for all and is for a controlled log-off. Who would rip out their network cable just to save the 30 seconds? Get real mate, no Cov-Ops pilot is going to do that.
They wouldn;t need to yank a cable, they could just task manager the app. And the safe logoff disable modules, so it would mean cloakers get an instant safe logoff, that's completely safe. If 20 seconds into mine someone scans me down I have to cancel and fight.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If the MWD'ing ship has no chance cos it was disconnected then how does it have a better chance still connected? You'd warp off...just like an e-warp does. You e-warp within a minute or so or a disconnect...

So non-cloaked (see tanky dps ships) with hardeners and boosters and everything else remain active until and while in e-warp while the Cov-Ops\Cloaked ship gets decloaked immediately and waits to e-warp...yeah that's fair right?
But a non-clokaed ship is still going to die if it gets caught. You arn't going to log back in, find your dominix pointed and in half armor and just run away screaming "hahaha! saved by my defenses!", you're going to watch the second half of your armor disappear and your ship explode. A smaller ship is going to have been shot and podded, regardless of modules. How is it fair that a cloaked ship should remain immune while other ships can be shot to pieces with no ability to prevent it. Essentially what this is saying is cloak ships should have disconnect protection, while all other ships can go **** themselves.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#22 - 2013-09-19 14:47:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Safe Logoff timer is for all and is for a controlled log-off. Who would rip out their network cable just to save the 30 seconds? Get real mate, no Cov-Ops pilot is going to do that.
They wouldn;t need to yank a cable, they could just task manager the app. And the safe logoff disable modules, so it would mean cloakers get an instant safe logoff, that's completely safe. If 20 seconds into mine someone scans me down I have to cancel and fight.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If the MWD'ing ship has no chance cos it was disconnected then how does it have a better chance still connected? You'd warp off...just like an e-warp does. You e-warp within a minute or so or a disconnect...

So non-cloaked (see tanky dps ships) with hardeners and boosters and everything else remain active until and while in e-warp while the Cov-Ops\Cloaked ship gets decloaked immediately and waits to e-warp...yeah that's fair right?
But a non-clokaed ship is still going to die if it gets caught. You arn't going to log back in, find your dominix pointed and in half armor and just run away screaming "hahaha! saved by my defenses!", you're going to watch the second half of your armor disappear and your ship explode. A smaller ship is going to have been shot and podded, regardless of modules. How is it fair that a cloaked ship should remain immune while other ships can be shot to pieces with no ability to prevent it. Essentially what this is saying is cloak ships should have disconnect protection, while all other ships can go **** themselves.


How about this then...opposite psychology:

Since cloaks immediately drop on disconnect then all modules should be instantly stopped whether at the end of their cycle or not on ALL ships...level playing field for all then.

Feel better about it now?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#23 - 2013-09-19 15:04:20 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Safe Logoff timer is for all and is for a controlled log-off. Who would rip out their network cable just to save the 30 seconds? Get real mate, no Cov-Ops pilot is going to do that.
They wouldn;t need to yank a cable, they could just task manager the app. And the safe logoff disable modules, so it would mean cloakers get an instant safe logoff, that's completely safe. If 20 seconds into mine someone scans me down I have to cancel and fight.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If the MWD'ing ship has no chance cos it was disconnected then how does it have a better chance still connected? You'd warp off...just like an e-warp does. You e-warp within a minute or so or a disconnect...

So non-cloaked (see tanky dps ships) with hardeners and boosters and everything else remain active until and while in e-warp while the Cov-Ops\Cloaked ship gets decloaked immediately and waits to e-warp...yeah that's fair right?
But a non-clokaed ship is still going to die if it gets caught. You arn't going to log back in, find your dominix pointed and in half armor and just run away screaming "hahaha! saved by my defenses!", you're going to watch the second half of your armor disappear and your ship explode. A smaller ship is going to have been shot and podded, regardless of modules. How is it fair that a cloaked ship should remain immune while other ships can be shot to pieces with no ability to prevent it. Essentially what this is saying is cloak ships should have disconnect protection, while all other ships can go **** themselves.


How about this then...opposite psychology:

Since cloaks immediately drop on disconnect then all modules should be instantly stopped whether at the end of their cycle or not on ALL ships...level playing field for all then.

Feel better about it now?

Yep, that's fine. It's equal for all ships that way.
Any uncloaked ship is dead if caught disconnected anyway, since you wont warp away once engaged anymore. So the only difference is how long it takes the enemy to destroy you. If you aren't engaged, in either case you warp away pretty quickly.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#24 - 2013-09-19 15:06:33 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Safe Logoff timer is for all and is for a controlled log-off. Who would rip out their network cable just to save the 30 seconds? Get real mate, no Cov-Ops pilot is going to do that.
They wouldn;t need to yank a cable, they could just task manager the app. And the safe logoff disable modules, so it would mean cloakers get an instant safe logoff, that's completely safe. If 20 seconds into mine someone scans me down I have to cancel and fight.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If the MWD'ing ship has no chance cos it was disconnected then how does it have a better chance still connected? You'd warp off...just like an e-warp does. You e-warp within a minute or so or a disconnect...

So non-cloaked (see tanky dps ships) with hardeners and boosters and everything else remain active until and while in e-warp while the Cov-Ops\Cloaked ship gets decloaked immediately and waits to e-warp...yeah that's fair right?
But a non-clokaed ship is still going to die if it gets caught. You arn't going to log back in, find your dominix pointed and in half armor and just run away screaming "hahaha! saved by my defenses!", you're going to watch the second half of your armor disappear and your ship explode. A smaller ship is going to have been shot and podded, regardless of modules. How is it fair that a cloaked ship should remain immune while other ships can be shot to pieces with no ability to prevent it. Essentially what this is saying is cloak ships should have disconnect protection, while all other ships can go **** themselves.


How about this then...opposite psychology:

Since cloaks immediately drop on disconnect then all modules should be instantly stopped whether at the end of their cycle or not on ALL ships...level playing field for all then.

Feel better about it now?

Yep, that's fine. It's equal for all ships that way.
Any uncloaked ship is dead if caught disconnected anyway, since you wont warp away once engaged anymore. So the only difference is how long it takes the enemy to destroy you. If you aren't engaged, in either case you warp away pretty quickly.


That's all I'm after is a level playing field. As a Cov-Ops pilot I'll probably be 250km's on a perch any how but for those that like to get a little up close and personal...everyone's shafted the same.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#25 - 2013-09-19 15:12:01 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yep, that's fine. It's equal for all ships that way.
Any uncloaked ship is dead if caught disconnected anyway, since you wont warp away once engaged anymore. So the only difference is how long it takes the enemy to destroy you. If you aren't engaged, in either case you warp away pretty quickly.


That's all I'm after is a level playing field. As a Cov-Ops pilot I'll probably be 250km's on a perch any how but for those that like to get a little up close and personal...everyone's shafted the same.
Indeed, equal rights to all, even if it's the equal right to die in a ball of fire :D

Honestly as for disconnection I think the main change they need to make is get the client to ping better. You can be disconnected for ages and not realise. I usually get told by my mates that I've just dropped fleet minutes before my client realises I'm disconnected. If It told me a bit quicker, perhaps we'd all have a better chance of living.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#26 - 2013-09-19 15:18:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yep, that's fine. It's equal for all ships that way.
Any uncloaked ship is dead if caught disconnected anyway, since you wont warp away once engaged anymore. So the only difference is how long it takes the enemy to destroy you. If you aren't engaged, in either case you warp away pretty quickly.


That's all I'm after is a level playing field. As a Cov-Ops pilot I'll probably be 250km's on a perch any how but for those that like to get a little up close and personal...everyone's shafted the same.
Indeed, equal rights to all, even if it's the equal right to die in a ball of fire :D

Honestly as for disconnection I think the main change they need to make is get the client to ping better. You can be disconnected for ages and not realise. I usually get told by my mates that I've just dropped fleet minutes before my client realises I'm disconnected. If It told me a bit quicker, perhaps we'd all have a better chance of living.


I completely agree with you on that. I only notice sometimes when I deactivate a module and it just keeps on'a'going and it's a bit of "Ummm that's weird" followed by a "SH!T F$%^$%& DISCON!" across the TS channel ha ha.

A "Ping-Alive" would be a lot better and I'm sure would stop so many tears from people (not aimed at anyone).

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#27 - 2013-09-19 16:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Giorgos Rbs
Just to clarify, i am not saying that covert cloak should be activated on disconnect if it was not active. But if you had it activated and you got disconnected it should stay activated for some time (till you are out of there) if not all the way to ship vanishing from game, because if you didn't get disconnected you could do that anyway.

Tanking modules don't activate when you disconnect (duh what am i explaining :P ), but if you had them active before you got DC they remain active for as long as your ship remains in the game. I believe the covert ops cloak should behave like that too IF AND ONLY IF it was already activated before you got DC. - whew Big smile


p.s. About the whole alt-F4 / task manager deal... i kinda lost you guys there... I thought the new aggression timers fixed such issues
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#28 - 2013-09-19 16:34:02 UTC
Giorgos Rbs wrote:
Just to clarify, i am not saying that covert cloak should be activated on disconnect if it was not active. But if you had it activated and you got disconnected it should stay activated for some time (till you are out of there) if not all the way to ship vanishing from game, because if you didn't get disconnected you could do that anyway.

Tanking modules don't activate when you disconnect (duh what am i explaining :P ), but if you had them active before you got DC they remain active for as long as your ship remains in the game. I believe the covert ops cloak should behave like that too IF AND ONLY IF it was already activated before you got DC. - whew Big smile
Tanking gear does literally nothing to stop you dying if you aren't online to do anything. And any small ship it does even less, especially if you are a speed tanker. Active tankers also gain nearly nothing by having their modules active. A cloaker however is immune to everything while cloaked. So a cloaker leaving his cloak on while disconnected is getting a massive advantage over everyone else. The only ships gaining from their tank remaining on are capitals, who might live to see you log on again.

Giorgos Rbs wrote:
p.s. About the whole alt-F4 / task manager deal... i kinda lost you guys there... I thought the new aggression timers fixed such issues
When you want to be sure you are safe to log off in space, you do a "safe logoff". this counts down, and after the countdown you can log off and be instantly safe. If you see an enemy, you can cancel and deal with it. When you start the countdown, all modules turn off.
If this change was in place, a cloaker could crash out his game while running a cloak, mimicking a disconnect, sure that nobody would be able to see him because his cloak stays on. This is a benefit, because if hes in a hostile system and someones looking for him, they could probe him down in the 30 seconds the safe logoff takes, so this change would make him able to avoid that and stay in hostile space.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#29 - 2013-09-20 08:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Giorgos Rbs
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tanking gear does literally nothing to stop you dying if you aren't online to do anything. And any small ship it does even less, especially if you are a speed tanker. Active tankers also gain nearly nothing by having their modules active. A cloaker however is immune to everything while cloaked. So a cloaker leaving his cloak on while disconnected is getting a massive advantage over everyone else. The only ships gaining from their tank remaining on are capitals, who might live to see you log on again.


Actually in PVE a ship with OK active tank might be able to tank forever even during hours of blackout and even when scrammed. Also about speedtanking, ships maintain their orbit during disconnect if scrammed in the site, so in a PVE environment again you can count on your orbit to speedtank DPS. - I am actualy utilizing these "features" by having solo tanking Tengus in class 4 wormholes. They are able to survive even during disconnect and even in that 4 safeguard Data/Relic spawn wave that scrams webs and neuts you to hell and back. The only reason we are using solo fits and not RR tengus or basilisks (which is much more efficient) is because solo tank never turns off in such fights while the RR just breaks when the cycle is over and everything dies and it's just 2 of us running the sites, not a whole fleet ready to cover for us in case one of us gets DC.



Lucas Kell wrote:
When you want to be sure you are safe to log off in space, you do a "safe logoff". this counts down, and after the countdown you can log off and be instantly safe. If you see an enemy, you can cancel and deal with it. When you start the countdown, all modules turn off.
If this change was in place, a cloaker could crash out his game while running a cloak, mimicking a disconnect, sure that nobody would be able to see him because his cloak stays on. This is a benefit, because if hes in a hostile system and someones looking for him, they could probe him down in the 30 seconds the safe logoff takes, so this change would make him able to avoid that and stay in hostile space.


What happens right now if you are covert cloaked in a safespot and you hit ALT+F4?
Couldn't the cloaker just leave his client running for another hour or 10 anyway? why would he log-off while in such danger? And even in safe logoff, couldnt he just re-cloak if he sees combat probes on dscan in those 30 seconds?
CCP Gargant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2013-09-20 10:13:43 UTC
I removed a few flaming and off topic posts.

CCP Gargant | EVE Universe esports Coordinator
Velicitia
XS Tech
#31 - 2013-09-20 11:03:21 UTC
Giorgos Rbs wrote:

What happens right now if you are covert cloaked in a safespot and you hit ALT+F4?


I get yelled at that I can't turn on my MWD while cloaked ... Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#32 - 2013-09-20 11:33:33 UTC
Lets reply on this from the prespective of someone being AFK cloaky camped, as a disclaimer I want no changes to the cloak. When I have had people come into local (wonderful that, needs to stay) I have a brief opportunity to D-Scan the gates to get intel on what just came in. After that it is either the player having a DC or logging to do something else. Intel is required on what is actually in system, so I tend to loiter in a cloaked ship around areas in which I expect they will log off, in other words space which is not possible to be D-Scanned from gates, stations and belts. A DC is a lucky break for me, in that I can find out what the blighter is in and work back his likely fit. Your suggestion removes one of the few issues that AFK cloakies have, I would rather not see that happen! Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#33 - 2013-09-20 11:36:49 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Lets reply on this from the prespective of someone being AFK cloaky camped, as a disclaimer I want no changes to the cloak. When I have had people come into local (wonderful that, needs to stay) I have a brief opportunity to D-Scan the gates to get intel on what just came in. After that it is either the player having a DC or logging to do something else. Intel is required on what is actually in system, so I tend to loiter in a cloaked ship around areas in which I expect they will log off, in other words space which is not possible to be D-Scanned from gates, stations and belts. A DC is a lucky break for me, in that I can find out what the blighter is in and work back his likely fit. Your suggestion removes one of the few issues that AFK cloakies have, I would rather not see that happen! Big smile


So you "exploit" the misfortune of someone having a DC to gain intelligence? That doesn't sit right one bit and no, I'm not saying you are using a game exploit or abusing the TOS\EULA or whatever before the haters jump on it, just that you are taking advantage of someone who has the misfortune to fall foul of something outside of their control to which there is no counter.

Interesting...

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#34 - 2013-09-20 11:50:52 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Lets reply on this from the prespective of someone being AFK cloaky camped, as a disclaimer I want no changes to the cloak. When I have had people come into local (wonderful that, needs to stay) I have a brief opportunity to D-Scan the gates to get intel on what just came in. After that it is either the player having a DC or logging to do something else. Intel is required on what is actually in system, so I tend to loiter in a cloaked ship around areas in which I expect they will log off, in other words space which is not possible to be D-Scanned from gates, stations and belts. A DC is a lucky break for me, in that I can find out what the blighter is in and work back his likely fit. Your suggestion removes one of the few issues that AFK cloakies have, I would rather not see that happen! Big smile


This is not a topic about AFK cloakers. Taking advantage of your enemy's disconnection should not be treated as a feature of the game... Shocked
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#35 - 2013-09-20 12:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lets reply on this from the prespective of someone being AFK cloaky camped, as a disclaimer I want no changes to the cloak. When I have had people come into local (wonderful that, needs to stay) I have a brief opportunity to D-Scan the gates to get intel on what just came in. After that it is either the player having a DC or logging to do something else. Intel is required on what is actually in system, so I tend to loiter in a cloaked ship around areas in which I expect they will log off, in other words space which is not possible to be D-Scanned from gates, stations and belts. A DC is a lucky break for me, in that I can find out what the blighter is in and work back his likely fit. Your suggestion removes one of the few issues that AFK cloakies have, I would rather not see that happen! Big smile


So you "exploit" the misfortune of someone having a DC to gain intelligence? That doesn't sit right one bit and no, I'm not saying you are using a game exploit or abusing the TOS\EULA or whatever before the haters jump on it, just that you are taking advantage of someone who has the misfortune to fall foul of something outside of their control to which there is no counter.

Interesting...


Well they are exploiting Eve not having a log off timer and of course there is no counter, sort of balances a small weeny bit, very small weeny bit that is! And by the way I want no log off timer either! And it is certainly not my intent to have yet another AFK cloaky thread, what I am pointing out that this is one of the few things that helps people AFK cloaky camped, well those that can be bothered to try to do something about it of course.

And another thing, scammers exploit having multiple accounts, so what!

EDIT: Love the background you used on your portrait

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#36 - 2013-09-20 12:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Remove this double posted by error

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Giorgos Rbs
Lead Head Inc
#37 - 2013-09-24 11:52:59 UTC
bump
Ben Houssa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-09-24 20:28:24 UTC
Simc0m
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-10-15 03:03:18 UTC
+1
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