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New to shield tanking, need a couple questions answered.
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I544CJON35 Aldent
Incursion Omega
#1 - 2013-09-15 13:56:34 UTC
Thanks for taking the time to read this :)

I've been flying Gallente my whole Eve life. Armor tank has been what I've done. I'm familiar with it, how it works, and its limits. My Dominix was getting stale, so I decided on a change of pace: The Rattlesnake. I love it's potential.

However, here is my confusion. Why does a 200 million isk shield booster repair the same amount as a 2 million isk T2 large armor repairer? Specifically, a Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster reps 343 every 3.2 secs for me where the T2 large armor repairer reps 1050 every 10.9 secs. They come out to just about the same amount repaired. Does shield tanking then require a different mindset? Is it all about resists?
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#2 - 2013-09-15 14:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Have in mind that shield boosters come in 4 sizes instead of three. S,M,L and XL. Armor repairers come only in S,M and L sizes.

Shield boosters also have 2 traits that make managing your tank easier.
1. They apply the shield HP amount at the start of the cycle, ie as soon as you push the button to activate the module.
2. They cycle much faster than an armor repairer.

Ancillary shield boosters also work a little differently than AARs, in that they require no cap whatsoever to run when loaded with booster charges. AARs run like ordinary reppers, with nano repair paste boosting their repair amount considerably.

Lastly, shields regenerate over time, and every ship in the game gets some more HP/s from that on top of your repairing amount. Armor does not, and the damage done is permanent, needing you to either rep it back yourself, or dock at a station and pay for repairs.

Resists have the same importance for both shield and armor active setups, the difference being that shield resists also boost your passive (free) regen rate.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#3 - 2013-09-15 14:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasutra
I544CJON35 Aldent wrote:
However, here is my confusion. Why does a 200 million isk shield booster repair the same amount as a 2 million isk T2 large armor repairer? Specifically, a Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster reps 343 every 3.2 secs for me where the T2 large armor repairer reps 1050 every 10.9 secs. They come out to just about the same amount repaired.

You're comparing a Large Armor Repairer to a Large Shield Booster, when it would be more appropriate to compare a Large Armor Repairer to an X-Large Shield Booster if it's HP/sec that you're interested in.

In general, you'll find that it's possible to get larger tank values when shield tanking (mostly thanks to it often being easy to fit "oversized boosters"), but at the cost of more cap consumption.

I544CJON35 Aldent wrote:
Is it all about resists?

It's usually easier to get high overall resists with a shield tank, thanks to Invulnerability Fields (but again, at the cost of cap-dependency when compared to EANMs). But the role of resists is precisely the same.
I544CJON35 Aldent
Incursion Omega
#4 - 2013-09-15 15:23:29 UTC
Thanks for the clarifications, makes more sense now.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#5 - 2013-09-15 16:15:57 UTC
Aren't rattlesnakes best as passive shield tankers?

One of the basics is that your ship's natural shield recharge rate (listed as time taken to recharge shields to full) is constant. For example, a rokh and a rattlesnake both take 2500 seconds to recharge. However, the rattlesnake has a higher amount if shield hit points. the rattlesnake repairs more hp per second. Now there are mods that can increase passive recharge rate, but well... They are usually less effective than using the same slot to increae overall shield hitpoints.

A standard example are shield purger and shield extended rigs. Shield extended are almost always favored. They buff your total shield hit points and by extension, also buff the passive recharge rate.

Additionally, passive recharge is not a linear process. Shields do not passively recharge at a constant rate per second. The peak recharge rate usually occurs when you are at 1/3rd shields. This means that for missions, if you eliminate enough higher dps before hitting 1/3rd shield, your passive recharge rate will tank the mission without the need of a booster.

Lastly, if you must use an active shield tank, remember there are shield boost amplifiers.
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-09-15 19:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mathias Orsen
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Aren't rattlesnakes best as passive shield tankers?

One of the basics is that your ship's natural shield recharge rate (listed as time taken to recharge shields to full) is constant. For example, a rokh and a rattlesnake both take 2500 seconds to recharge. However, the rattlesnake has a higher amount if shield hit points. the rattlesnake repairs more hp per second. Now there are mods that can increase passive recharge rate, but well... They are usually less effective than using the same slot to increae overall shield hitpoints.

A standard example are shield purger and shield extended rigs. Shield extended are almost always favored. They buff your total shield hit points and by extension, also buff the passive recharge rate.

Additionally, passive recharge is not a linear process. Shields do not passively recharge at a constant rate per second. The peak recharge rate usually occurs when you are at 1/3rd shields. This means that for missions, if you eliminate enough higher dps before hitting 1/3rd shield, your passive recharge rate will tank the mission without the need of a booster.

Lastly, if you must use an active shield tank, remember there are shield boost amplifiers.


Rattlesnake is great at passive tanking for a BS but it's still not near as tanky as an active tank. Especially when that active tank is being made of Pith and gist gear instead of t2.

I just find it ironic that the OP tells of his Domi getting stale and then changes over to the most similar ship possible.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-09-15 20:10:11 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Have in mind that shield boosters come in 4 sizes instead of three. S,M,L and XL. Armor repairers come only in S,M and L sizes.

Shield boosters also have 2 traits that make managing your tank easier.
1. They apply the shield HP amount at the start of the cycle, ie as soon as you push the button to activate the module.
2. They cycle much faster than an armor repairer.

Ancillary shield boosters also work a little differently than AARs, in that they require no cap whatsoever to run when loaded with booster charges. AARs run like ordinary reppers, with nano repair paste boosting their repair amount considerably.

Lastly, shields regenerate over time, and every ship in the game gets some more HP/s from that on top of your repairing amount. Armor does not, and the damage done is permanent, needing you to either rep it back yourself, or dock at a station and pay for repairs.

Resists have the same importance for both shield and armor active setups, the difference being that shield resists also boost your passive (free) regen rate.

:O
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#8 - 2013-09-15 20:20:45 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

:O


?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-09-15 21:16:05 UTC
Shield Boost Amplifiers can be pretty useful



fairly sure there's no armour tanking equivalent.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#10 - 2013-09-15 21:29:46 UTC
Quote:

fairly sure there's no armour tanking equivalent.


There is sth close, in rig form though. Both shield and armor reps get a cycle speed boost rig (solidifiers and nanobot accelerators) but armor setups also get a repair bonus rig thats called auxiliary nano pump.
I544CJON35 Aldent
Incursion Omega
#11 - 2013-09-19 07:48:40 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Aren't rattlesnakes best as passive shield tankers?

One of the basics is that your ship's natural shield recharge rate (listed as time taken to recharge shields to full) is constant. For example, a rokh and a rattlesnake both take 2500 seconds to recharge. However, the rattlesnake has a higher amount if shield hit points. the rattlesnake repairs more hp per second. Now there are mods that can increase passive recharge rate, but well... They are usually less effective than using the same slot to increae overall shield hitpoints.

A standard example are shield purger and shield extended rigs. Shield extended are almost always favored. They buff your total shield hit points and by extension, also buff the passive recharge rate.

Additionally, passive recharge is not a linear process. Shields do not passively recharge at a constant rate per second. The peak recharge rate usually occurs when you are at 1/3rd shields. This means that for missions, if you eliminate enough higher dps before hitting 1/3rd shield, your passive recharge rate will tank the mission without the need of a booster.

Lastly, if you must use an active shield tank, remember there are shield boost amplifiers.


Rattlesnake is great at passive tanking for a BS but it's still not near as tanky as an active tank. Especially when that active tank is being made of Pith and gist gear instead of t2.

I just find it ironic that the OP tells of his Domi getting stale and then changes over to the most similar ship possible.


Haha, made me lol :P

I didn't want to start completely fresh, so I found something where I could put my drone skills to use along with a better ship. More dps, tank, etc. Felt like more options for me.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#12 - 2013-09-19 10:22:36 UTC
You d be better off training your gunnery up and trying a Mega or Hyperion tbh but thats neither here or there
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#13 - 2013-09-19 11:07:18 UTC
train for a proteus or eos with blaster turrets and microwarpdrive up close to the enemies and melt them Big smile
Great fun if your bored with safe tactics like HML's or slow sentry tactics Blink

sometimes its not in the weapon systems but how you do things that makes it more engaging.
Just a few ideas. Smile
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#14 - 2013-09-19 19:27:49 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Shield Boost Amplifiers can be pretty useful



fairly sure there's no armour tanking equivalent.


If you don't know thermodynamics they are a semi OK solution.

The more damage you mitigate the less you have to repair. SBA's amplify damage from overheating. For example my current tank would be 662/420 with an SBA, 722/402 with an extra invuln, and 1176/576 overheated.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-09-19 19:37:53 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Aren't rattlesnakes best as passive shield tankers?

If we are min-maxing ships for DPS in PvE environement ITT (tell me if I'm wrong), then it's useful to remember that fitting sufficient passive tank on Rattler is done at the expense of DPS. It was a thing for two ships setups (tank+gank) for L5s at one point (Rattler was there to provide "pure" passive tank against heavy neuting), but AI changes rendered that strategy pretty much pointless.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-09-19 19:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Have in mind that shield boosters come in 4 sizes instead of three. S,M,L and XL. Armor repairers come only in S,M and L sizes.

Shield boosters also have 2 traits that make managing your tank easier.
1. They apply the shield HP amount at the start of the cycle, ie as soon as you push the button to activate the module.
2. They cycle much faster than an armor repairer.

Ancillary shield boosters also work a little differently than AARs, in that they require no cap whatsoever to run when loaded with booster charges. AARs run like ordinary reppers, with nano repair paste boosting their repair amount considerably.

Lastly, shields regenerate over time, and every ship in the game gets some more HP/s from that on top of your repairing amount. Armor does not, and the damage done is permanent, needing you to either rep it back yourself, or dock at a station and pay for repairs.

Resists have the same importance for both shield and armor active setups, the difference being that shield resists also boost your passive (free) regen rate.



Very much this.

Considering HP/s /cap efficiency shields are ahead of armor for some details that are very important in pvp, such as regular fights duration etc.
Shields are excellent because of this simple detail, a regular fight usually ends in about 40sec to 1min at worst, if you take both armor and shield abilities or possibilities to help you achieve your goal you'll end quite easy to "get" the advantage of shields when in armor you have to sacrifice a lot more than a better repper and rigs. It's getting closer with latest armor changes but we're still not at the point we can say "using different tools to achieve same task, have the same difficulty but only the player skill counts and will make the difference"
Shields atm imho are still a bit (10 to 20% -/+ depending on setup) better than armor becaue of tiny little things that are not really a tanking difference but an obvious advantage, and when you start getting in to Dead Space modules your brains can't stop turning when you figure the numbers.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne