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Terms of Service CSM Feedback Thread

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Ifly Uwalk
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-09-13 21:59:10 UTC
I see a lot of posts about the scamming side of the ToS change; while I don't scam much myself I feel strongly for my scamming space-bros and support any improvement to the ToS with regards to that.

Myself, I care more about the RPing side of the argument, specifically this bit:
Quote:
You may not ... falsely present yourself to be a representative of another ... NPC entity.

Fortunately I have here an actual, petitioned use case for your collective consideration:

A few weeks ago I decced a corp and sent their CEO the following mail:

Quote:
Mr Shadowlord,

Good evening. ETCA is a CONCORD-approved tax collection agency operating on behalf of and all over the four major empires.

The Caldari State has found your corporation guilty of tax evasion in connection with the illicit acquisition of salvage. In particular, residents of the Motsu area have filed several complaints against your former corporation member Zloy Salvager in that regard.

State and Region Bank launched a full investigation and found that Mr Salvager was in fact acting on your behalf. The Chief Executive Panel has tasked me with the recovery of lost tax revenue in the amount of ISK 500,000,000.00 (500 million) through any means necessary.

To avoid further embarrasment I suggest you pay the above mentioned amount as soon as possible to me, Ifly Uwalk. This will cause an immediate end of hostilities.

Awaiting your positive reply,

Kind regards,

Ify Uwalk

This got petitioned and I was asked to not represent myself as "CONCORD-approved" as that might imply some sort of CCP approval or favouritism on CCP's part towards me; or as having been sicced on their a$$es by the CEP.

I can see the CONCORD bit and have no problem with no longer claiming an affiliation with them in the future. But the rest of it?

See, I don't RP much. In fact, the above mail is the most RPing I've engaged in in over six years of playing. I don't browse the Something Something Summit forum and don't post in New Caldari local that Tibus Heth is the answer. So I don't know what the specific rules are, if any, concerning RPing but what I wrote seems perfectly fine to me. I just don't see how anyone signing up to an MMO "RP" G can honestly believe that some NPC corp would actually send a player after them to give them grief.

But then maybe I'm all totally wrong and just don't understand how roleplaying really works because I never engage in it; in which case I'd be happy for someone to enlighten me on the error of my ways.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#62 - 2013-09-13 21:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Guys, if it's discovered someone is using your name against your will, simply ask them to stop. Or skip that part and go straight into petitioning them from harassment.

CCP can change the character's name or open dialogue with them negotiating a new name (and profession).

PLEASE DO NOT infringe on players right to infiltration/scam, as this will damage the sandbox of the game. (Your present recommendation comes dangerously close to doing exact that.)

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-09-13 22:00:41 UTC
What mynnna said. Naming policy 2c really has to go.

In particular there needs to be significant difference in "Impersonate or parody another Player, Corporation or Alliance by creating a new Character, Corporation or Alliance with a similar name" and impersonating a player on directional scan by renaming your ship to match theirs, using a corporation's name in a contract name, or naming a station after a player without their consent (RIP Vile Rat).

Naming policy 2a covers character names in the heading, but then spills over to corporation names in bullet 3. 2a should encompass Character, Corporation and Alliance naming policy right from the heading and be expanded to cover impersonation of existing ones.

2b can then cover the undesirable content of all in-game names as it stands, without passing the restrictions of existing characters/corps/alliances to all in-game objects (and even chat channel communications as it has been expanded to by GM interpretation)

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Ed Tekki
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-09-13 22:01:42 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Ed Tekki wrote:
Andski wrote:
Actually, I'm going to retract my bit about alts. Claiming to be somebody else's alt should not be allowed. Imagine somebody going around claiming to be you and saying "Did I ever tell you guys how much I beat my wife?" or something along those lines.


That could be fixed with a simple line that covers IRL defamation of character, and strong wording that affected parties have CCP's legal support.

In reality, if someone did do that, you could press charges.


Because the police are totally going to take this seriously: "A guy in a computer game pretended to be my in game character & told people I beat my nonexistent wife. Charge him with something".
That's a civil suit. You don't need to involve law enforcement. You just sic lawyers on the person.


Pretty much this. There's even Law firms that deal exclusively with defamation of character over the internet, and due to the fact there's usually logs for everything on the internet, it's almost always a very simple case to prove if one wishes to do so.
DRGaius Baltar
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-09-13 22:01:47 UTC
Just want to point out it seems the ones crying for changes are goons, PL and random scammers

End of line---------------
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-09-13 22:02:18 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
All EVEloedpia pages that represent player-owned entities (characters, corporations, alliances, coalitions, blogs, podcasts, third-party websites) should be removed immediately. EVElopedia should simply be a resource for the game; a resource for items, mechanics, NPCs, systems, regions, ships, stations, lore, etc. It should not be a resource for player-owned information.

Full explanation here: http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/09/remove-players-and-player-orgs-from.html


The problem I have with this is that it is often the only location left online where you can get some of the old histories of Eve without hunting down the players involved and feeding them beers at Fan Fest to get them to tell you what happened.
Uther Pryce
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-09-13 22:05:39 UTC
wow CCCP you caved quickly on this one. i am disappoint.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#68 - 2013-09-13 22:05:39 UTC
Andski wrote:
Actually, I'm going to retract my bit about alts. Claiming to be somebody else's alt should not be allowed. Imagine somebody going around claiming to be you and saying "Did I ever tell you guys how much I beat my wife?" or something along those lines.

I go both ways on this. On the one hand, it's easy to verify that you are *not* my alt; just contact me. On the other hand, slander of that sort is not the kind of thing where you'd think to contact me. On the third hand...someone could just make a post right now about how they totally heard that I beat my wife / my posting proves that I beat my wife, and keep up with it until enough people hear it as true. It's already an option and I don't think being able to say that you're my alt makes it worse.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2013-09-13 22:07:07 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
That's it. Players lying and pretending to be other players or organizations or representatives of those organizations should be completely allowed

Hahaha you backpedaled rather quickly there didn't you?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#70 - 2013-09-13 22:07:24 UTC
DRGaius Baltar wrote:
Just want to point out it seems the ones crying for changes are goons, PL and random scammers

End of line---------------


They're not alone, a large part of the sandbox is dedicated to weeding out the gullible and the stupid.

This has been EVE since the beginning.

Space is cold; you grow up quick.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#71 - 2013-09-13 22:07:57 UTC
Ok, so here we go.

Quote:
Impersonation is defined herein as being the deliberate parody of the name of an existing character, corporation, or alliance so as to mislead others into the belief that you are that character, corporation, or alliance.


Simply by defining the term, we remove the possibility of "being banned for lying".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-09-13 22:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
Ifly Uwalk wrote:
Quote:
story

This got petitioned and I was asked to not represent myself as "CONCORD-approved" as that might imply some sort of CCP approval or favouritism on CCP's part towards me; or as having been sicced on their a$$es by the CEP.

I can see the CONCORD bit and have no problem with no longer claiming an affiliation with them in the future. But the rest of it?

See, I don't RP much. In fact, the above mail is the most RPing I've engaged in in over six years of playing. I don't browse the Something Something Summit forum and don't post in New Caldari local that Tibus Heth is the answer. So I don't know what the specific rules are, if any, concerning RPing but what I wrote seems perfectly fine to me. I just don't see how anyone signing up to an MMO "RP" G can honestly believe that some NPC corp would actually send a player after them to give them grief.

But then maybe I'm all totally wrong and just don't understand how roleplaying really works because I never engage in it; in which case I'd be happy for someone to enlighten me on the error of my ways.


Yeah, like a scam where I claim to be The Mittani's alt and have come collecting on rental contracts, CCP really shouldn't be protecting the excessively ignorant or lazy from themselves. If they believe something far fetched, they should suffer the consequences for it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#73 - 2013-09-13 22:08:35 UTC
DRGaius Baltar wrote:
Just want to point out it seems the ones crying for changes are goons, PL and random scammers

End of line---------------


I don't suppose this is the time or place to ask for a downvote button on the forums?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#74 - 2013-09-13 22:08:43 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Andski wrote:
Actually, I'm going to retract my bit about alts. Claiming to be somebody else's alt should not be allowed. Imagine somebody going around claiming to be you and saying "Did I ever tell you guys how much I beat my wife?" or something along those lines.

I go both ways on this. On the one hand, it's easy to verify that you are *not* my alt; just contact me. On the other hand, slander of that sort is not the kind of thing where you'd think to contact me. On the third hand...someone could just make a post right now about how they totally heard that I beat my wife / my posting proves that I beat my wife, and keep up with it until enough people hear it as true. It's already an option and I don't think being able to say that you're my alt makes it worse.


Sounds like someone isn't petitioning harassment.

Seriously, CCP has a lot more power to intervene in these situations than you all give them credit for.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Gavinvin1337
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-09-13 22:09:02 UTC
Bagehi wrote:

I'm with Mynnna on this. Mimicking another character's name damages the "your actions have consequences" which is a core part of Eve. Making a character named Chribbα, even if it is Chribba himself making that character, to scam people should be against the rules. The AngeI Project shouldn't be allowed to scam people thinking they are donating isk to The Angel Project. If someone want to scam another person, they need to put in the work, not simply create a character/corp that confuses people. But, the TOS wording change was far more broad than that and needs to be re-worded to match what, I hope, was the intended purpose of the change.


This is magic, I don't get how these two are different. But they are. Amazing.
Ed Tekki
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-09-13 22:09:09 UTC
Set wiki pages pertaining to player related events and entities to read only, edits must be petitioned. Set up an entity like the ISD as player related wiki editors.
Mazlow Shartain
Thin Red Line Industries
#77 - 2013-09-13 22:11:25 UTC
Mynnna has it exactly right.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-09-13 22:11:51 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Andski wrote:
Actually, I'm going to retract my bit about alts. Claiming to be somebody else's alt should not be allowed. Imagine somebody going around claiming to be you and saying "Did I ever tell you guys how much I beat my wife?" or something along those lines.

I go both ways on this. On the one hand, it's easy to verify that you are *not* my alt; just contact me. On the other hand, slander of that sort is not the kind of thing where you'd think to contact me. On the third hand...someone could just make a post right now about how they totally heard that I beat my wife / my posting proves that I beat my wife, and keep up with it until enough people hear it as true. It's already an option and I don't think being able to say that you're my alt makes it worse.


Sounds like someone isn't petitioning harassment.

Seriously, CCP has a lot more power to intervene in these situations than you all give them credit for.


Exactly. They don't have to claim to be your alt to have already violated parts of the TOS/EULA.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#79 - 2013-09-13 22:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ali Aras
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
That's it. Players lying and pretending to be other players or organizations or representatives of those organizations should be completely allowed

Hahaha you backpedaled rather quickly there didn't you?

On the contrary; none of my posts prior to the ones in this thread have contained my opinions on what the TOS should say. Ask anyone who's been talking to me since this broke, my position is unchanged.

In the earlier thread, I felt that the GMs adequately clarified what the policy did say and how they enforced it, and promised to continue to follow up as a CSM member with the concerns raised about the TOS contents. The CSM kept talking about it on skype and kept posting privately. Now we have this thread, my opinions on the TOS are relevant and topical, so I've posted them.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Clavin
Coiled Spring Inc
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-09-13 22:13:52 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Posting publicly what I'll be saying in private as well:

My thoughts are more along the lines of no. #2, thoughtful objections to the TOS itself. I like mynnna's wording, and here's where I'm coming from on it:

The TOS on impersonation should (1) prohibit players pretending to be CCP or people connected to CCP, and (2) it should prohibit players from using UI tricks to make their characters too difficult to distinguish from another character.

That's it. Players lying and pretending to be other players or organizations or representatives of those organizations should be completely allowed. After all, if I am pretending to be someone else or someone else's representative, my mark can check in with the original as long as I'm not violating point no. 2 above. If I am, then *that's* the TOS violation that protects the player.

People with good reputations can protect them by petitioning any clones who're scamming and by reminding their customers to triple-check before doing business with them. Access to a character in order to edit a bio or send a mail can verify that you're working with the right person. Someone wants to broker supercaps on their alts? Great, they list their names in their main's bio. Someone wants to rent out all of Vale? Great, they list the approved rental officers in the corp description or a bio or something.

Similarly, if someone apps to my corp with the text 'June Ting's Cyno Alt' and I don't check with June to see whether they're actually who they say they are, I'm liable for anything that happens afterwards. It's no different from accepting an app from someone who says they're a total carebear who wants to come to mining ops without checking their API to see what they *do* at said mining ops. Sure, it's a lazy way to awox, but margin trading is a lazy way to scam and *that* still works. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.


I'd post something similar to this so ill just quote it as typing on a phone is just horrible!