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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1161 - 2013-09-13 05:46:35 UTC
What the duck is happening to this game?
Cuebick
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1162 - 2013-09-13 05:47:56 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Help me understand this then:

I, Abdiel Kavash, run a legit 3rd party business. Over the years I gain the trust of hundreds and a multibillion empire.

CASE 1: A new character, Joe McScammer, completely unaffiliated with me, decides to make some extra money. Joe McScammer convoes a customer of AbdielCorp and claims to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash. The poor mark falls for it and gives Joe McScammer ISK thinking he's sending it to Abdiel Kavash.

In this case, Joe McScammer is guilty of "[using] the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity", and if petitioned by the unsatisfied customer is prone to getting banned.


CASE 2: I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again.

Since different characters are treated as separate entities, is this judged the same as case 1? Is Phill McScammer prone to getting banned for impersonating Abdiel Kavash? I.e. can I get banned for claiming that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash?


I suppose you have read my example, so you can answer that yourself as it is pretty much the same thing with different names.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Can I be banned for telling the truth?


Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


My fellow capsuleers are doing a good job of reaming you with their more eloquent vocabulary, so I'll just pop in to reiterate that this is hilariously bad. Please biomass.
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1163 - 2013-09-13 05:48:44 UTC
Alavaria wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:
basically what i'm saying is stop brown-nosing the devs, they won't hire you and it makes you look like a chump

Well, there was that one hire, if you recall.

i really wish i could say that was an anomaly or an outlier but...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#1164 - 2013-09-13 05:49:00 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
Last reply from me, before I really go back to watching mode for the thread (well, some sleep as well).

greiton starfire wrote:
New hard question. is this rule to protect those who have been imposted or those who have been scammed. who has the right to petition. if it is to protect the imposted, for groups who has the right to petition, the ceo, any line member, etc.


Mostly this is in place for the ones that have been impersonated, though directly affected victims may of course report that as well.


So, to protect the person being impersonated, you're going to ban them. That's literally insane.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ripply Kat
Temporal Paradox
#1165 - 2013-09-13 05:54:44 UTC
Am I in too late to say this is ******* stupid.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#1166 - 2013-09-13 05:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
Cuebick wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Help me understand this then:

I, Abdiel Kavash, run a legit 3rd party business. Over the years I gain the trust of hundreds and a multibillion empire.

CASE 1: A new character, Joe McScammer, completely unaffiliated with me, decides to make some extra money. Joe McScammer convoes a customer of AbdielCorp and claims to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash. The poor mark falls for it and gives Joe McScammer ISK thinking he's sending it to Abdiel Kavash.

In this case, Joe McScammer is guilty of "[using] the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity", and if petitioned by the unsatisfied customer is prone to getting banned.


CASE 2: I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again.

Since different characters are treated as separate entities, is this judged the same as case 1? Is Phill McScammer prone to getting banned for impersonating Abdiel Kavash? I.e. can I get banned for claiming that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash?


I suppose you have read my example, so you can answer that yourself as it is pretty much the same thing with different names.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Can I be banned for telling the truth?


Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


My fellow capsuleers are doing a good job of reaming you with their more eloquent vocabulary, so I'll just pop in to reiterate that this is hilariously bad. Please biomass.


If the GMs were to take action on CASE 1 but not take action on CASE 2 ... then they would have just confirmed that Phill McScammer and Abdiel Kavash are indeed the same player. Aside from the fact that I'm fairly sure that GMs aren't allowed to do that ... the scammer in CASE 2 is doubly boned because he's just outed his legit character (Abdiel Kavash) as a scammer.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#1167 - 2013-09-13 06:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimson Gauntlet
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Crimson Gauntlet wrote:
So, let's talk about libel.

Since it now (because, clearly, it never was acted on before) against the ToS to "impersonate" someone yourself, is it also actionable to libel (knowingly or otherwise) someone as being an alt of a widely hated figure in the EVE universe?

Example:

This character is a suicide ganker. Several times since his creation earlier this week, I have been accused of being an alt of James 315. This character is not, he is not only distinct and separate, but the holders of the account are not the same person (which should be the same thing, but clearly is not anymore).

So, seeing as James 315 is a widely disreputable figure among a significant subset of the EVE population, can I report the 2 dozen or so people who have accused me of this (which is the literal definition of misrepresentation applied outward), as it could be argued to be damaging to my reputation?

For a further example, suppose someone accuses Random Goon #419 of being an alt of The Mittani. The Mittani is the single most widely hated individual in EVE and some of the smaller northeastern states. Is an accusation intended to be damaging to the reputation of Random Goon #419 a violation, as it is deliberately misrepresenting this character as something he is not?

And, if the answer is that I can, in fact, petition this as an act of libel, can I do it for someone accusing me of being one of my own alts? Because if the alt and the player are separate now... the two should be interchangable. :P


Try it, find out.

Next time someone accuses me of being a James 315 alt, I guess I'll have to petition it. See what happens.

If there's enough additional work for the GMs, maybe that will make CCP rethink this ridiculous idea.


I may just do that. Thing is, between the numerous verbal harassment violations the local miners habitually commit, and this, I would be making petitions til the cows came home.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1168 - 2013-09-13 06:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Action
GM Karidor wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Help me understand this then:

I, Abdiel Kavash, run a legit 3rd party business. Over the years I gain the trust of hundreds and a multibillion empire.

CASE 1: A new character, Joe McScammer, completely unaffiliated with me, decides to make some extra money. Joe McScammer convoes a customer of AbdielCorp and claims to be an alt of Abdiel Kavash. The poor mark falls for it and gives Joe McScammer ISK thinking he's sending it to Abdiel Kavash.

In this case, Joe McScammer is guilty of "[using] the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity", and if petitioned by the unsatisfied customer is prone to getting banned.


CASE 2: I decide that I want to make some extra money off my past customers, without necessarily having to provide any extra services. I create a new character, Phill McScammer, on my account. I then go talk to a past customer of AbdielCorp and I claim that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash. Customer falls for it, sends me their money and never sees it again.

Since different characters are treated as separate entities, is this judged the same as case 1? Is Phill McScammer prone to getting banned for impersonating Abdiel Kavash? I.e. can I get banned for claiming that Phill McScammer is an alt of Abdiel Kavash?


I suppose you have read my example, so you can answer that yourself as it is pretty much the same thing with different names.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Can I be banned for telling the truth?


Your character Phill McScammer impersonated Abdiel Kavash, the same way as Joe McScammer did, thus gets it from us the same way if reported. From our point of view, as well as from a victims, there is no technical difference between those two cases of a character impersonating another.


god
damn


like I can't actually believe that you're saying this.

You are saying, with a straight face, that you using an alt in order to scam someone, *or otherwise represent YOURSELF* on that alt character, is against the rules.

I am like... completely flabbergasted. And angry.

You cite earlier in the thread - and I can't remember where because this entire fuсking thread is a trainwreck of your team putting their feet in their mouth - that each character is its own representation.

This is rеtarded, and let me tell you why. The character doesn't matter in this game, especially with the Character Bazaar being a thing. What matters is the person behind the keyboard. Who are you to say what someone wants to do from within the confines of the game? Why shouldn't someone like Abdiel, or The Mittani, or Chribba himself, be able to decide, "hey this guy has a stupid amount of money, I feel like liberating it from him from this character I am going to claim is my main's alt (which it really is!) because... that's EVE!"

God just get out forever. You have no idea what this game is about, and how you EVER managed to become a GM - and SENIOR GM at that - is a mystery to any sane person; something you clearly aren't.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#1169 - 2013-09-13 06:12:06 UTC
Dirk Action wrote:


god
damn


like I can't actually believe that you're saying this.

You are saying, with a straight face, that you using an alt in order to scam someone, *or otherwise represent YOURSELF* on that alt character, is against the rules.

I am like... completely flabbergasted. And angry.

You cite earlier in the thread - and I can't remember where because this entire fuсking thread is a trainwreck of your team putting their feet in their mouth - that each character is its own representation.

This is rеtarded, and let me tell you why. The character doesn't matter in this game, especially with the Character Bazaar being a thing. What matters is the person behind the keyboard. Who are you to say what someone wants to do from within the confines of the game? Why shouldn't someone like Abdiel, or The Mittani, or Chribba himself, be able to decide, "hey this guy has a stupid amount of money, I feel like liberating it from him from this character I am going to claim is my main's alt (which it really is!) because... that's EVE!"

God just get out forever. You have no idea what this game is about, and how you EVER managed to become a GM - and SENIOR GM at that - is a mystery to any sane person; something you clearly aren't.


Actually, no.

Try to keep up.

He is not saying that you can't use an alt to scam someone.
He is not saying that you can't use an alt to represent yourself.
He is saying that if you choose to use an alt to IMPERSONATE yourself in a SCAM then he has to handle that the same way as he handles someone else IMPERSONATING you in a scam.

Why? Because if he treats those two cases differently he is essentially giving out information on player accounts ... specifically by confirming that one character is an alt of another.


"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1170 - 2013-09-13 06:12:27 UTC
I do not want to continue giving CCP my 8 accounts worth of money when the fundamental reason for so many players, myself included, to even consider giving EVE a shot - the metagame, the heists, the freedom to do whatever you want within the very fair rules - are turned upside-down on an apparent whim by what I sincerely hope is a case of a Game Masters team gone horribly wrong, and not actually a CCP sanctioned decision.
Jon Matick
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1171 - 2013-09-13 06:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jon Matick
For the love of god, this is EVE. EVE without being able to scam HOWEVER you want is a game I do not want to play.
As such, I hereby give everyone in EVE the right to represent me, or any of my 21 characters, in any way they see fit.

My Blog:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1172 - 2013-09-13 06:16:22 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
[

Actually, no.

Try to keep up.

He is not saying that you can't use an alt to scam someone.
He is not saying that you can't use an alt to represent yourself.
He is saying that if you choose to use an alt to IMPERSONATE yourself in a SCAM then he has to handle that the same way as he handles someone else IMPERSONATING you in a scam.

Why? Because if he treats those two cases differently he is essentially giving out information on player accounts ... specifically by confirming that one character is an alt of another.




GMs need to stay out of legal scams altogether. "Legal scams" meaning ones done entirely through social manipulation, not through illegal, exploitative means such as account hacking.

This brand new policy is completely unprecedented and wrong. Period.
Crimson Gauntlet
Six Gun Sound
#1173 - 2013-09-13 06:18:21 UTC
Jon Matick wrote:
For the love of god, this is EVE. EVE without being able to scam HOWEVER you want is a game I do not want to play.
As such, I hereby give everyone in EVE the right to represent me, or any of my 21 characters, in any way they see fit.


In which case, I'd like your stuff now.
Number of times my posts have come in after the dev/mod locked the thread:  1
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1174 - 2013-09-13 06:18:34 UTC
If I use my out-of-alliance alt in order to perform a rental scam, claiming I am Dirk Action and I can sell space in the Drone Regions, and if my mark is too goddamn stupid to actually mail my main (on which I would ABSOLUTELY NOT want to scam on or confirm that it's my alt as it would hurt our business and result in me being kicked from the alliance), and I get their money, then that's too bad for them and the GMs should buzz off.
Mildew Wolf
#1175 - 2013-09-13 06:20:02 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Dirk Action wrote:


god
damn


like I can't actually believe that you're saying this.

You are saying, with a straight face, that you using an alt in order to scam someone, *or otherwise represent YOURSELF* on that alt character, is against the rules.

I am like... completely flabbergasted. And angry.

You cite earlier in the thread - and I can't remember where because this entire fuсking thread is a trainwreck of your team putting their feet in their mouth - that each character is its own representation.

This is rеtarded, and let me tell you why. The character doesn't matter in this game, especially with the Character Bazaar being a thing. What matters is the person behind the keyboard. Who are you to say what someone wants to do from within the confines of the game? Why shouldn't someone like Abdiel, or The Mittani, or Chribba himself, be able to decide, "hey this guy has a stupid amount of money, I feel like liberating it from him from this character I am going to claim is my main's alt (which it really is!) because... that's EVE!"

God just get out forever. You have no idea what this game is about, and how you EVER managed to become a GM - and SENIOR GM at that - is a mystery to any sane person; something you clearly aren't.


Actually, no.

Try to keep up.

He is not saying that you can't use an alt to scam someone.
He is not saying that you can't use an alt to represent yourself.
He is saying that if you choose to use an alt to IMPERSONATE yourself in a SCAM then he has to handle that the same way as he handles someone else IMPERSONATING you in a scam.

Why? Because if he treats those two cases differently he is essentially giving out information on player accounts ... specifically by confirming that one character is an alt of another.




Afaik to "impersonate yourself" is an oxymoron
Dirk Action
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1176 - 2013-09-13 06:20:06 UTC
The punishment of finding a smart mark is that the scam falls through. *The punishment should not be a ban.*

Soundwave help us that this is the GM team we're stuck with.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#1177 - 2013-09-13 06:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
Dirk Action wrote:




GMs need to stay out of legal scams altogether. "Legal scams" meaning ones done entirely through social manipulation, not through illegal, exploitative means such as account hacking.

This brand new policy is completely unprecedented and wrong. Period.



Actually ... impersonating other players being against the rules has been shown to be neither new policy nor unprecedented. Impersonating other players was already against the rules before the TOS update.

If it is wrong or not is another question. That is certainly a topic for debate if you ask me. But it is an entirely separate issue from all of the "new TOS means scammers get banned" hysteria that is going on here.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#1178 - 2013-09-13 06:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
Mildew Wolf wrote:



Afaik to "impersonate yourself" is an oxymoron




Fair enough. I wasn't clear there. Someone using one of their characters to impersonate another of their characters. My point remains the same.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#1179 - 2013-09-13 06:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
Dirk Action wrote:
The punishment of finding a smart mark is that the scam falls through. *The punishment should not be a ban.*

Soundwave help us that this is the GM team we're stuck with.


Nobody from CCP has said anything about any of this being grounds for an insta-ban. I don't know why people think they're going to get banned out of the blue for scamming. Chill.

Also, the punishment is that the scam falls through? WTF happened to risk vs. reward? Should the punishment for getting caught in your ratting carrier be that you don't get any bounties? Or should you lose your carrier?

(I know this last bit is going to make some people lose their minds but I just couldn't resist.) Blink

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Petrus Justinianus
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1180 - 2013-09-13 06:29:26 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
I will admit I was a little confused by the alt thing at first, but after the latest explanation it seems pretty clear to me why this is necessary. Most of you are so wrapped around the axle at this point you can't see it ... or you're just ******* dense, I'm not sure which.

The reason the case where someone is lying about being an alt and someone is telling the truth about being an alt is treated the same way is to keep people from using the petitioning system as an intel tool to find out who people's alts are. The GMs, in this case have to treat each CHARACTER as a separate entity ... in order to not reveal that they are linked to the same PLAYER. This actually helps you scammers keep the identity of your alts secret.

Those of you who are making up stupid examples of getting banned for responding in the wrong alt's chat window and other such nonsense seem to think that there is a massive room of people watching all player communication and looking for someone to say they're an alt so they can be ban-hammered. That is obviously not how things work. Someone has to petition you first, and then a GM has to review the petition and determine that you were trying to impersonate someone with malicious intent (to scam them.) Any petitions that are that obviously stupid are going to be rejected as obviously stupid. (And hopefully a form letter indicating "Your petition has been rejected for being stupid." will be sent to the petitioner.)

So can some of you please try to get past the whole "alt" thing...?

Putting the alt thing aside you're all probably still upset about the fact that you can be petitioned for impersonating someone...

The additional explanation of how this is the same as previous policy mostly tracks for me as well. The previous policy was buried in the naming policy but has been moved to the TOS for clarity. Some of you are reading this as CCP making scams against the TOS. I don't see how you're getting there. This does make scams that are based on impersonating other players against the TOS ... as it was previously against the naming policy as the GM clarified. I don't see this as making scams against the TOS at all. It simply means you can't design your scams around impersonating another player. (So, don't be lazy. If you want to be a scammer or a spy, put some effort into it, ffs.)

If it is "wrong" or against EVE culture for impersonation-based scams to be against the rules is certainly something worthy of debate. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. People who put some more thought into their scams and other nefarious plots than "Hey, I'm Joe's alt" will still be scamming happily away for years to come. But hey, I get it ... effort, and all. Perhaps this is something that should be discussed without all of the rampant stupidity that has been in this thread.

There is one area that is still quite murky in my opinion and that is the impersonation or representation of "groups." In the context of EVE, "groups" is going to be hard to define. (BTW if you really think selling a raven as an RNI would be misrepresenting yourself as part of the group of "RNI owners" then you're the most pedantic tool I've seen in a while.) Obviously if groups not defined within the game mechanics are taken into consideration then the rule becomes almost meaningless right off the bat. Not being able to represent yourself as being part of a group that is defined by game mechanics ... just seems silly, really. This part is still a cause for concern for me unless someone can explain it further in a way that makes some sense.


stay in school kids..