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Margin Trading Scams and Proposed Fixes
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#41 - 2013-09-11 03:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
NEONOVUS wrote:
So tell me why this margin trading skill should be introduced?
What precisely does it cover and allow to benefit the game?


It allows market traders without 10s of billions of spare ISK to usefully take part in slower markets.
It allows market traders without 10s of billions of ISK to make a reasonable income by trading.
It allows market traders without 10s of billions of ISK to compete.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
#42 - 2013-09-11 04:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lukas Rox
Margin Trading scams exist because people trust the market too much. In 99.9% of orders they complete, so new players quickly learn to trust the market. And then out of a sudden it fails them, leaving them with an item they never wanted in the first place.

IMO what should be changed is Aura should say something about "dont trust buy orders" in the tutorial:

"Market buy orders can sometimes fail, for example when the buyer does not have enough money to cover the order. Some people can deliberately use this against you."

And that's it I think. If someone didn't run the tutorial, then they can be blamed for their ignorance.

Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve | Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#43 - 2013-09-11 04:53:35 UTC
Hmm didn't read through all that crap, but here's how it could work: The seller receives a message: "The item you're trying to sell is being bought on margin and there's not enough money at the moment to cover it, would you like to sell it anyway and wait until the buyer deposits the sum?" If yes the item is being held in the market.
At the same time the buyer's account goes into the negative. He can't put new buy orders until he pays off the item.

Voila
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#44 - 2013-09-11 05:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Bigg Gun wrote:
Hmm didn't read through all that crap, but here's how it could work: The seller receives a message: "The item you're trying to sell is being bought on margin and there's not enough money at the moment to cover it, would you like to sell it anyway and wait until the buyer deposits the sum?" If yes the item is being held in the market.
At the same time the buyer's account goes into the negative. He can't put new buy orders until he pays off the item.

Voila



Hoooray, Free, infinite ISK faucet.


Oh, and the "Margin Trading Skill" and "Trading on Margin" are two entirely unrelated things.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mag's
Azn Empire
#45 - 2013-09-11 10:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
William Bradley wrote:
Since practically none of you are posting anything constructive on the matter and are merely regurgitating the same "I want to be able to cheat anyone I please; it's not my fault, it's their fault" scumbag rhetoric as always, I'm not going to be bothering to respond to such vapid posts beyond this point. There is no logical or reasonable argument being presented from any of you for why the margin trading system should not be fixed; your only obvious interest is in keeping the system as it is so that you can continue to exploit other players for your own sick amusement. That EVE Online is a game is no excuse for you to treat the real Human beings on the other end of each character as inanimate objects for you to use and abuse at your leisure; such an attitude is deplorable, and speaks to your lack of integrity in the real world.

I sincerely hope CCP does do something to fix the margin trading system, if for nothing else to protect the undeserving victims of such scams from the greed and bile of sociopaths like you.
It's quite clear that you can only reply with ad hom attacks. Although already clear to most, your use of these personal attacks only highlights that your stance/argument is weak and without foundation.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#46 - 2013-09-11 10:34:54 UTC
Lukas Rox wrote:
Margin Trading scams exist because people trust the market too much. In 99.9% of orders they complete, so new players quickly learn to trust the market. And then out of a sudden it fails them, leaving them with an item they never wanted in the first place.

IMO what should be changed is Aura should say something about "dont trust buy orders" in the tutorial:

"Market buy orders can sometimes fail, for example when the buyer does not have enough money to cover the order. Some people can deliberately use this against you."

And that's it I think. If someone didn't run the tutorial, then they can be blamed for their ignorance.
I'm all for making the tutorial more informative, but if newbies have the isk to buy a contract (Often in many multiple-digit millions or even billions) then they want the item enough to pay for it. If they pay for little-traded with the intention of selling to ridiculous overpriced buyorders and end up either having to sell at more regular market values or keep a module, they wanted the potential profit enough to risk buying the contract.
I have nothing against the sentence you suggested. I find it fine and helpful in general while not too handholding.
There could even be added a line about contracts & containers without too much trouble.
My concern is that it could become too much handholding. Giving the tools to learn when you're about to be scammed (And a general "be careful, you can be scammed in EVE") is good - and your suggested sentence would do that fine. I just wanted to be sure that this was articulated, so that it does not enter the area of slippery slopes.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#47 - 2013-09-11 11:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
William Bradley wrote:
Since practically none of you are posting anything constructive on the matter and are merely regurgitating the same "I want to be able to cheat anyone I please; it's not my fault, it's their fault" scumbag rhetoric as always, I'm not going to be bothering to respond to such vapid posts beyond this point. There is no logical or reasonable argument being presented from any of you for why the margin trading system should not be fixed; your only obvious interest is in keeping the system as it is so that you can continue to exploit other players for your own sick amusement. That EVE Online is a game is no excuse for you to treat the real Human beings on the other end of each character as inanimate objects for you to use and abuse at your leisure; such an attitude is deplorable, and speaks to your lack of integrity in the real world.

I sincerely hope CCP does do something to fix the margin trading system, if for nothing else to protect the undeserving victims of such scams from the greed and bile of sociopaths like you.


It's not cheating, we're not scumbags, general ad hominem attacks just demonstrate how weak and desperate your arguments are.

There is no issue at all with the margin trading. If you buy something, try to sell it to an order that was made using margin trading and which then fails, you don't lose anything. You keep the item(s) you tried to sell and nothing happens. The person who put up the buy order loses some isk.

You have yet to explain why this is an issue, and why it needs changing.

Say it with me: You keep the items, and the failed buy order costs the other person isk.

That is more than reasonable if you ask me.

The only reason you are ranting is because you initially overpaid for the item you tried to sell. How is that anyones fault except your own? No one held a spacegun to your head and made you buy it. There are also tools within the game that allow you to judge whether the amount you're paying for it is reasonable.

So what is the problem again?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#48 - 2013-09-11 11:29:16 UTC
I was close to falling for this scam myself Oops, but I knew something was up so I asked a member of my corp who explained it to me. It's one of the more subtle scams, but even the isk doubling thing catches some folks out What? there's no way to save some people from their own naivety, there will always be somebody somewhere willing to buy bridges off nigerian princes over the telephone.
brinelan
#49 - 2013-09-11 16:59:56 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course).


you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait...
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#50 - 2013-09-11 17:17:51 UTC
brinelan wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course).


you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait...


I dont have problems with scaming it was just a small idea to speed up the process and give the player more information that matters.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-09-11 17:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
what it needs is warning to new players about the scam. i am sure everyone will get scamed once before we knew about what this scam really do. The unlucky ones will put all their isk into buying something that seem for sure would make a profit then realize their whole bank account is gone. These kind of scam is impossible for the people to detec unless you were told before. it is almost like a contract to sell a mach for 2million isk then you accept the contract and boom your just lost a mach in your hanger because the guy had a skill call bait and swtich trained to lvl 5 which will change the contract from selling to buying.

These kind of scams where are skills related should be warned to players by CCP because even a very careful person will get scammed. there is no way to know unless you know about the skill.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#52 - 2013-09-11 21:22:59 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
what it needs is warning to new players about the scam. i am sure everyone will get scamed once before we knew about what this scam really do. The unlucky ones will put all their isk into buying something that seem for sure would make a profit then realize their whole bank account is gone. These kind of scam is impossible for the people to detec unless you were told before.
Wrong. You can check the market and know it before buying.
Quote:
it is almost like a contract to sell a mach for 2million isk then you accept the contract and boom your just lost a mach in your hanger because the guy had a skill call bait and swtich trained to lvl 5 which will change the contract from selling to buying.
No. Those are almost entirely unlike each other.
Quote:
These kind of scams where are skills related should be warned to players by CCP because even a very careful person will get scammed. there is no way to know unless you know about the skill.
A careful person won't get scammed.
A less careful person will only get scammed if he/she wants a potential profit more and faster than checking it over.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#53 - 2013-09-11 22:00:45 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
brinelan wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course).


you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait...


I dont have problems with scaming it was just a small idea to speed up the process and give the player more information that matters.


The UI gives you the following information for every single item on the market:
The highest and lowest transaction prices for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The median transaction price for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The volume of transactions for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
A trailing 5d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A trailing 20d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A list of all open bids and asks with their remaining duration (and their last update time, by proxy) (table only)

What more information could you possibly want?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#54 - 2013-09-11 22:27:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
brinelan wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course).


you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait...


I dont have problems with scaming it was just a small idea to speed up the process and give the player more information that matters.


The UI gives you the following information for every single item on the market:
The highest and lowest transaction prices for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The median transaction price for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The volume of transactions for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
A trailing 5d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A trailing 20d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A list of all open bids and asks with their remaining duration (and their last update time, by proxy) (table only)

What more information could you possibly want?


Still dont get it? Its about >REDESIGN< the UI... Roll

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#55 - 2013-09-11 22:57:12 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The UI gives you the following information for every single item on the market:
The highest and lowest transaction prices for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The median transaction price for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
The volume of transactions for each and every day of the last year (table or graph)
A trailing 5d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A trailing 20d average transaction price for the last year (graph only)
A list of all open bids and asks with their remaining duration (and their last update time, by proxy) (table only)

What more information could you possibly want?


Still dont get it? Its about >REDESIGN< the UI... Roll



Ok, what better way is there to present that information than your choice of a graph or table?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
brinelan
#56 - 2013-09-12 13:41:23 UTC
So you cant sell an item to a buy order, you are out no money when you cannot sell the item to the buy order.. whats the problem? And no, it is not ccp's job to hold your hand the entire time you play. If you want hand holding, go back to wow.

If you bought an item that was that overpriced that's your problem, not the failed buy order. Don' be greedy and you wont fall for these.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#57 - 2013-09-12 14:08:43 UTC
I'm fully in support of anything to fix the margin trade scam.
I don't want to see all scamming removed from EVE as it is a part of it, however the margin trade scam has nothing to alert a playing to it being a scam unless they know about that exact scam.

ISK doubling, contract and item switch scams all have clear information or are based on trust in the party you're dealing with meaning the fault of falling for these scams is in the hands of the player who doesn't check them correctly.

Margin trade scams however have no indication at all and I have known many veteran players who have fallen for it because they had no idea it was possible. When you see something for sale for lower than someone is buying it you assume the market isn't open to abuse for scamming.

OP's ideas are a good trail of thought and better than most peoples requests to simply remove the skill from the game.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Sam Alkawe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-09-12 14:52:50 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I'm fully in support of anything to fix the margin trade scam.
I don't want to see all scamming removed from EVE as it is a part of it, however the margin trade scam has nothing to alert a playing to it being a scam unless they know about that exact scam.

ISK doubling, contract and item switch scams all have clear information or are based on trust in the party you're dealing with meaning the fault of falling for these scams is in the hands of the player who doesn't check them correctly.

Margin trade scams however have no indication at all and I have known many veteran players who have fallen for it because they had no idea it was possible. When you see something for sale for lower than someone is buying it you assume the market isn't open to abuse for scamming.

OP's ideas are a good trail of thought and better than most peoples requests to simply remove the skill from the game.


I would think that is the beauty of the scam. The fact that even experienced players can get caught in it unless they learn about the scam is very nice. Sure, maybe there could be a few changes to the way the market works, but the scam by itself should exist IMO. Baiting somebody to buy something overpriced could be done without the Margin trading, albeit with a lot more risk to it (or not as many benefits). Bonus points if you can control access to the station (such as camping gates and station to kill anything that wants to sell there) among other things.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#59 - 2013-09-13 11:42:47 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I'm fully in support of anything to fix the margin trade scam.
I don't want to see all scamming removed from EVE as it is a part of it, however the margin trade scam has nothing to alert a playing to it being a scam unless they know about that exact scam.

ISK doubling, contract and item switch scams all have clear information or are based on trust in the party you're dealing with meaning the fault of falling for these scams is in the hands of the player who doesn't check them correctly.

Margin trade scams however have no indication at all and I have known many veteran players who have fallen for it because they had no idea it was possible. When you see something for sale for lower than someone is buying it you assume the market isn't open to abuse for scamming.

OP's ideas are a good trail of thought and better than most peoples requests to simply remove the skill from the game.
Please explain what issues there are with margin trading?
When you sell to an order that fails, do you lose the stuff you're selling?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#60 - 2013-09-13 13:34:12 UTC
brinelan wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
You want less Scam? Improve the UI so can Identity scams faster (if your able to read of course).


you mean like adding a tab that shows you the sales history of that item sorted by date, has low and high price and even a large colorful graph.. oh wait...

Most items used for margin trade scams have either no buy history or a scam buy history, so they look legit.

Margin trade scams do suck pretty hard though. Those of us with market knowledge know about this kind of thing, but often you see a newbie with no idea it's even possible. Since there is nowhere that explains this to a newbie, they see a sure fire way to make profit, then they lose out. Not because they did anything particularly stupid, but they believed the numbers the system showed them.

So with that in mind, I'd suggest simply adding an "isk in escrow" column to the market buy orders, that shows how much is in escrow (or the order amount total is it was all in escrow). At least this would give an indicator that something was amiss so they could go find out what it means. If they chose to ignore that and still bought they items, that's tough luck.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.