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To Clarify about Economy and ISK

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arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#41 - 2013-09-12 04:19:50 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I'm going to report the OP and like half the people in this thread. They're impersonating (badly, but that doesn't matter) people who know anything about the game's economy.


Can't tell if crying about the TOS change like a little girl, or the usual Goon dellusion about controling anything in the game :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#42 - 2013-09-12 04:30:29 UTC
ITT: Hidden hulkageddon tears

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-09-12 04:40:59 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I'm going to report the OP and like half the people in this thread. They're impersonating (badly, but that doesn't matter) people who know anything about the game's economy.


Can't tell if crying about the TOS change like a little girl, or the usual Goon dellusion about controling anything in the game :)


Neither. Poking fun at the TOS changes, while also mocking a pack of idiots.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#44 - 2013-09-12 05:06:54 UTC
By acting like one?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-09-12 05:10:12 UTC
Bottom line (at the risk of sounding accountant like and daring Mynnna to report me)

Yes, inflation happens, and no, you cannot lay the blame for it at one ship or incidents door.

Doors don't open in Eve.

Yes things are more expensive than they once were and there are more ways to make isk then there once was. The costs and the flow if isk may not exactly balance but in a dynamic economic model like New Edens we have proved to be remarkably resilient.

If you EVER get a chance to listen to the good Dr. Ejyo, jump at it.

Things change and the market changes with it. So you cannot be in a hulk inside of a month? Fine, fly a venture.

Command ships cost far more than they once did? No argument. But, pray tell, what deus ex machina would you have handed down from on high? The market reacts to the changes and finds its own level. Without intervention, without hands behind the curtain, it just does.

The wiser of us may be able to see the next move and profit from it but the rest of us ride the storms, look to other ways to balance the rising costs and the game goes on.

play

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#46 - 2013-09-12 06:19:59 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
I lost you.

So its 13% over a year or 13000% over three years? how is 52 periods of 10 equal 13,000?

I admit i have no talent for number or understending them, i am a lawyer, explain to me like im 4 :)


Compounding increments lead to huge increases over time. It's how RL traders (who don't lose) become so rich.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kanyed
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-09-12 08:16:14 UTC
Again I'm not saying what is going on is a bad thing, or does it "need" to be changed. I was just clarifying why the prices are high and that mission runners and ratters are not the cause of it. Also again I understand that Hulkageddon was not the sole reason of the rise in prices. Prices would have still went up if the other pointed out events happened without the Hulkageddons help. I am only stating that, since Hulkageddon DID happen and since at that turning point (I think it was Hulkageddon 2,3, or 4. Whichever one it was before it became permanent hehe) there was a rise in participants and destroyed Hulks were high. It caused it to go higher. Its the difference between mass production versus not. The assembly line helped bring prices for certain goods lower due to the ability to mass produce said products at a faster and more efficient rate. Same thing with the Hulk.

Again I am not saying the Hulkageddon was the sole reason, just stating that it helped the rise in prices due the inability to mass mine high sec ore without everyone and their grandma itching to see a Hulk in an asteroid belt ready to suicide gank it. There were again other factors that happen which I pointed out that caused the increase in prices NOT mission runners and ratters.

There are things that go on in real life market economy that don't happen in EvE which helps deter inflation/deflation. Taxes on exports and imports for one thing. If they implemented that in game that probably would cause up a HUGE uproar. If you had to pay a tax when transferring a fully loaded freighter from empire to the next I think people would strike. However, this is a game so I doubt things like tariffs would be possible.

One last thing. If Hulkageddon was just to watch the world burn. Then I give thanks to the billions of ISK I made trading during that time :).
Tina Tyrion Lanister
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2013-09-12 09:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tina Tyrion Lanister
Inflation is in the long run caused by the money supply increasing. That is, isk, wherever it comes from enters the economy faster than it leaves the economy.

What is the major way isk leaves the economy? taxes? I can't think of much other than that. Ships getting blown up doesn't do it, as the money for the components is in the players hands still. Were is the money sink at to keep the money supply in balance? (im actually a bit of a noob to eve so I honestly am unaware) I was an economics minor in school but my understanding of eve is limited.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#49 - 2013-09-12 09:31:18 UTC
Kanyed wrote:
I know the first 2 or 3 hulkageddons that happened were done to cause a demand for those ships. If not then someone else took advantage of it and created more market orders for Hulks in general. There was a spike in sell and buy orders for that ship during the time for Hulkageddons.
Yes, Hulkageddon spiked hulk prices.

Kanyed wrote:
Also again I understand that Hulkageddon was not the sole reason of the rise in prices. Prices would have still went up if the other pointed out events happened without the Hulkageddons help. I am only stating that, since Hulkageddon DID happen and since at that turning point (I think it was Hulkageddon 2,3, or 4. Whichever one it was before it became permanent hehe) there was a rise in participants and destroyed Hulks were high. It caused it to go higher. Its the difference between mass production versus not. The assembly line helped bring prices for certain goods lower due to the ability to mass produce said products at a faster and more efficient rate. Same thing with the Hulk.
Hulkageddon did not contribute to a permanent price rise. It's a short term spike only. The permanent price rise was caused by a change in build requirements and T2 material costs. It's actually impossible to cause a permanent spike unless you permanently kill hulks, as there will always be industrialists who flood the market to cash in on it, bringing the price back down. It's only when demand is permanently increased or supply is permanently diminished that prices will change (other than build requirement changes and raw material costs). Which hasn't happened. If anything, demand has decreased, since mackinaws are now the ship of choice for miners with no dedicated hauler, as they no longer suffer a massive decrease in efficiency.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#50 - 2013-09-12 09:34:28 UTC
Tina Tyrion Lanister wrote:
What is the major way isk leaves the economy? taxes? I can't think of much other than that. Ships getting blown up doesn't do it, as the money for the components is in the players hands still. Were is the money sink at to keep the money supply in balance? (im actually a bit of a noob to eve so I honestly am unaware) I was an economics minor in school but my understanding of eve is limited.

NPC Sell orders are a large part of it. BPOs in particular are a big sink, but so are skill books. Clone prices also contribute, especially when you consider how many high SP characters use "pod express" to jump between locations. It costs upwards of 20m a time for higher SP characters to do that. The LP store is another one.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#51 - 2013-09-12 09:56:17 UTC
Load of BS. Star with an appraisal of the hulkaggedon "damages" and the "followed direct&indirect damages".
Then maybe you have a case. Empty statments give nothing.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

P3po
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-09-12 11:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: P3po
About ISK sinks and faucets, here are the stats from CCP Diagoras while he still made them :

Skillbooks sold by group in April, by ISK total: Spaceship Command (4.9tn), Science (529bn), Subsystems (266bn), Mechanic (204bn).

Most sold ship BP groups in April, by value: Battlecruiser (1.4k / 552.3bn), Battleship (335 / 332.8bn), Freighter (168 / 294.3bn).

Most sold BPOs by NPCs this year so far (ISK spent): Erebus (1.3tn), Avatar (1tn), Covetor (550bn), Charon (499bn), Cap. Const Parts (352bn) - End of Marth

And faucet :

32,083,329,999,805 ISK paid out in bounties in Feb.

Sell-to-NPCs items from wormholes generated 346bn ISK yesterday. 10.43tn ISK in Feb 2012 total.

8,566,015,400,900 ISK paid out in Incursion rewards in February.

Mission rewards paid out in Feb: 2,470,815,985,076 ISK. Mission bonuses: 2,346,410,541,970 ISK.


That means 55.7 trillion ISK created in February for example.

Just skill books and few BPO cost 14 trillion ISK per month. Not accounting taxes, fees (also this data is somewhere there, I'm just too lazy to find it), Sov costs etc.

Edit : found this : Total bought from NPCs in Feb: 13tn ISK.

So I would not say that the ISK sinks are only "drop in the ocean".

Ok, found this : apparently these are stats for one DAY !!!

PI Import tax: 5.48bn spent; 1.23bn of that paid to player corps. Export tax: 29.8bn spent, 8.47bn paid to player corps.
5.15bn spent on war fees, 10.1bn on repair bills. 207m earned by player corps on repair bills.
Office rental fees yesterday: 19.25bn spent, 2.4bn earned by player corps.
21.65bn spent on planetary construction, 31.4bn on clones.
81.9bn spent on transaction taxes, 95.9bn on broker fees. Player owned stations earned their owners 6bn in broker fees.
822m spent on alliance maintenance fees, 27.9bn spent on sov bills. 4bn spent registering new alliances.
733,377,961 ISK spent installing manufacturing jobs - 326m of that going to player corporations.
380m spent on handing out medals; 440.25m spent on placing corporation recruitment adverts.
Last one up; 21,847 LP store wallet transactions costing a total of 218.33bn ISK.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#53 - 2013-09-12 12:02:44 UTC
P3po wrote:
Stats

This was also covered at Fanfest during the economy section. With graphs and everything. It's on you tube.
P3po
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-09-12 12:08:10 UTC
Oh, oki ... Sorry, did not read or watch those.

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-09-12 12:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Lucas Kell wrote:
Hulkageddon did not contribute to a permanent price rise. It's a short term spike only. The permanent price rise was caused by a change in build requirements and T2 material costs. It's actually impossible to cause a permanent spike unless you permanently kill hulks, as there will always be industrialists who flood the market to cash in on it, bringing the price back down. It's only when demand is permanently increased or supply is permanently diminished that prices will change (other than build requirement changes and raw material costs). Which hasn't happened. If anything, demand has decreased, since mackinaws are now the ship of choice for miners with no dedicated hauler, as they no longer suffer a massive decrease in efficiency.

Yes.

Tina Tyrion Lanister wrote:
Inflation is in the long run caused by the money supply increasing. That is, isk, wherever it comes from enters the economy faster than it leaves the economy.

What is the major way isk leaves the economy? taxes? I can't think of much other than that. Ships getting blown up doesn't do it, as the money for the components is in the players hands still. Were is the money sink at to keep the money supply in balance? (im actually a bit of a noob to eve so I honestly am unaware) I was an economics minor in school but my understanding of eve is limited.


Academically true, though an expansion of money supply is normal and healthy; it's when it expands too fast that it can become a problem. Players hear snippets of data from Fanfest and such and go, "Oh my, 30 trillion a month being added to the economy, that's a lot! Inflation must be a huge issue!"

Except not. There's plenty of evidence that suggests that either the money supply isn't expanding too fast, or that it simply doesn't matter at all. The fact is that virtually every change in the price indices has an identifiable reason, and it's never "there is more money in the game." With the very recent exception of tiericide, finished goods very rapidly adjust to changes in material prices, and material prices are dominated by game mechanics. If isk inflation (that is, the increase in money supply) causes price inflation (that is, an increase in prices), then the effect is so small as to be undetectable.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#56 - 2013-09-12 12:24:07 UTC
I have said, its only a feeling, glad to be wrong.

Anyway the "isk printing" should be tied up with "Sinks".The beauty is that IRL its an impossible task to achive, the Federal Reserve doesnt do it like that and all other banks follow.
The total amount of isk increasing is fine i guess, after all new players are joining all the time.

But on the other hand, i think the community is too satiet. Remembering back on games that just got out and how beeing poir was much more satisfaying :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#57 - 2013-09-12 12:33:42 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Hulkageddon did not contribute to a permanent price rise. It's a short term spike only. The permanent price rise was caused by a change in build requirements and T2 material costs. It's actually impossible to cause a permanent spike unless you permanently kill hulks, as there will always be industrialists who flood the market to cash in on it, bringing the price back down. It's only when demand is permanently increased or supply is permanently diminished that prices will change (other than build requirement changes and raw material costs). Which hasn't happened. If anything, demand has decreased, since mackinaws are now the ship of choice for miners with no dedicated hauler, as they no longer suffer a massive decrease in efficiency.

Yes.

Tina Tyrion Lanister wrote:
Inflation is in the long run caused by the money supply increasing. That is, isk, wherever it comes from enters the economy faster than it leaves the economy.

What is the major way isk leaves the economy? taxes? I can't think of much other than that. Ships getting blown up doesn't do it, as the money for the components is in the players hands still. Were is the money sink at to keep the money supply in balance? (im actually a bit of a noob to eve so I honestly am unaware) I was an economics minor in school but my understanding of eve is limited.


Academically true, though an expansion of money supply is normal and healthy; it's when it expands too fast that it can become a problem. Players hear snippets of data from Fanfest and such and go, "Oh my, 30 trillion a month being added to the economy, that's a lot! Inflation must be a huge issue!"

Except not. There's plenty of evidence that suggests that either the money supply isn't expanding too fast, or that it simply doesn't matter at all. The fact is that virtually every change in the price indices has an identifiable reason, and it's never "there is more money in the game." With the very recent exception of tiericide, finished goods very rapidly adjust to changes in material prices, and material prices are dominated by game mechanics. If isk inflation (that is, the increase in money supply) causes price inflation (that is, an increase in prices), then the effect is so small as to be undetectable.



Well said.
And still, one day its gonna pop :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-09-12 23:54:30 UTC
Mission runners do not create isk out of thin air. They use resources and time to procure those resources. And do to such your ISK has a value.

If they sat around expending no time or materials to procure them then the ISK would be worthless.

Time has value.
Julia Avinte
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-09-13 14:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Julia Avinte
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Mission runners do not create isk out of thin air. They use resources and time to procure those resources. And do to such your ISK has a value.

If they sat around expending no time or materials to procure them then the ISK would be worthless.

Time has value.


This!

Eve does not have a central bank who prints money with no effort. All isk faucets except for insurance are ways to make money in exchange for effort and all other ways of making money are in some way isk sinks (usually through sales tax and BPO purchases). Therefore isk creation is affected by supply and demand.

There are very low barriers of entry between different ways of making money in Eve. Therefore, if the purchasing power of ISK declines, ratting and missions will become less lucrative and more people will make money producing stuff or trading and a new balance will occur between isk creation and destruction.

This does not mean we do not have purchasing power inflation but it dampens its impact.

Another aspect to take into consideration is the fact that there is no real financial market in Eve. In real life, money in our bank accounts are put to work by the banks and are therefore part of the active monetary supply. Money in our wallets in Eve are not active and therefore our wallets act as temporary isk sinks (or permanent for all the isk on inactive accounts).
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#60 - 2013-09-16 15:52:47 UTC
Kanyed wrote:


The one thing that controls the EvE market economy is the ORE Tritanium. Its importance is so high that it could be used as currency. The points I mentioned above are why the market prices are so high. Not because of mission runners or plexs or whatever. It started with Hulkageddon and ended with CCP.



i think you dont really all the building mechanical and market mechanical

for exemple tritanium are a important part in T1 building but for T3 isn't the less important part .
if you think that One alliance player drive Eve economics, you think bad ;)

player whose have stockpile control sell order
stock pill can be acquire by many .
The volume can be acquired by several way (mining / manufacturing / purchase) everything is question of patience (time of gameor of isk ) And you know how many "pressing" players make the happiness of the financial director of CCP;)

nota: solo player can be control quote of some item

If to doubt you it it's time to look after you of the brainwashing of the sect "Taligoon"