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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#801 - 2013-09-12 00:34:57 UTC
John Ryuk wrote:
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it.

Yeah !!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#802 - 2013-09-12 00:36:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Fnord wrote:
Our main problem with this is that it makes illegal a large number of activities that were previously legal. And those activities are part of the cultural makeup that Eve has and is the main reason a lot of people play the game in the first place.

Maybe this the cultural revolution eve has needed.

A kinder, less harsh, warmer eve.


Someone peed in the space water?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#803 - 2013-09-12 00:37:25 UTC
John Ryuk wrote:
Use some common sense.



So, according to your "common sense" is it against the rules to say that your alt is you?

Because GM Karidor has answered that question, and the answer may surprise you.


There's a reason why laws don't operate on the principle "use common sense." "Common sense" is not "common" in either sense of the word.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Le Creed
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#804 - 2013-09-12 00:38:15 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it.

Yeah !!


Those pesky scammers and griefers are ruining my mining operation!

DOWN WITH SCAMMERS~~~
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#805 - 2013-09-12 00:39:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
It was recently pointed out to me that CCP doesn't have to go that deep into the TOS to ban most of you. Read the TOS ... no. 2 and 3 specifically. If all TOS violations resulted in ban-hammer ... how many of you would still be here? Why aren't you up in arms about that?

You get down towards the end of the TOS and it basically says they can ban you or do whatever they want to your account whenever they feel like it anyway. So what's the difference?



I don't think any of the language I've used ITT has been defamatory, vulgar, etc, and the in game organization that I am a member of is founded on the proposition that people like waffles, so I don't see how that could be a hate group.

How am I in TOS section 2 and 3's crosshairs?



I think if you read my post carefully you will realize it wasn't directed at any one player in particular. But I think that anyone who's been in-system with a fleet that is "****-ing up local" won't have trouble imagining that there's probably a fair few people in this thread who have violated no. 2 at the very least.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#806 - 2013-09-12 00:40:13 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Fnord wrote:
Our main problem with this is that it makes illegal a large number of activities that were previously legal. And those activities are part of the cultural makeup that Eve has and is the main reason a lot of people play the game in the first place.

Maybe this the cultural revolution eve has needed.

A kinder, less harsh, warmer eve.

Someone peed in the space water?

Multiple someones.

Check the OP of the thread

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Fnord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#807 - 2013-09-12 00:40:19 UTC
Le Creed wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it.

Yeah !!


Those pesky scammers and griefers are ruining my mining operation!

DOWN WITH SCAMMERS~~~


I know! Scammers are the worst kind of people and I totally don't do it on an alt of mine that I'm not allowed to mention the name of under the new ToS.
John Ryuk
C0NC0RD P0LICE DEPT.
#808 - 2013-09-12 00:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ryuk
RubyPorto wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:
Use some common sense.



So, according to your "common sense" is it against the rules to say that your alt is you?

Because GM Karidor has answered that question, and the answer may surprise you.


There's a reason why laws don't operate on the principle "use common sense." "Common sense" is not "common" in either sense of the word.


It's against Federal Law to smoke Marijuan-a yet they do it in WA and CO, but the federal law is rarley enforced, but you push your luck then the local pd can charge you with a federal charge instead of a state charge to make it stick.

This rule is likely to be rarley enforced unless someone pushes there luck.

It's a legal tool at there desposial if they need to use it.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#809 - 2013-09-12 00:44:17 UTC
John Ryuk wrote:

It's against Federal Law to smoke ********* yet they do it in WA and CO, but the federal law is rarley enforced, but you push you luck then the local pd can charge you with a Federal Charge instead of a state charge to make it stick.

This rule is likely to be rarley enforced unless someone pushes there luck.

It's a legal tool at there desposial if they need to use it.


They should utilize the "we don't like you" clause of the EULA and ban you for posting crimes against humanity.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#810 - 2013-09-12 00:44:46 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Alright, so let's say I agree with you on that...

...which you obviously don't, so why pretend?


Actually I do agree with you. Where I differ with others in this thread is that I don't think that the impersonation clauses are necessarily going to be the thing in the TOS that is going to be strictly enforced and punished with instant perma-bans.

Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Do we know CCP is going to use this impersonation clause "a lot"? You would think that perhaps the GMs would use some discretion and only use it in extreme situations ... because ... I don't know ... they are concerned with "consumer good-will?"

Unlike the catch-all clause, the other terms in the ToS are actually there for day-to-day use. Remember the thing I said about "looking arbitrary"? It's not arbitrary if something's explicitly forbidden and you act on it. It is however arbitrary if you disallow something and then don't act on it.
I'm not going to claim I know how often that rule will be used, because that'd be dishonest. But the fact that there is a rule against misrepresentation now means that it's going to be used.


Foul language and hate speech is "explicitly forbidden" and rarely acted upon ... so this would seem to be arbitrary. Why are people not as upset about this clause?

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
John Ryuk
C0NC0RD P0LICE DEPT.
#811 - 2013-09-12 00:45:58 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:

It's against Federal Law to smoke ********* yet they do it in WA and CO, but the federal law is rarley enforced, but you push you luck then the local pd can charge you with a Federal Charge instead of a state charge to make it stick.

This rule is likely to be rarley enforced unless someone pushes there luck.

It's a legal tool at there desposial if they need to use it.


They should utilize the "we don't like you" clause of the EULA and ban you for posting crimes against humanity.


Do you think about what you say before you post it or just let whatever pops into your tiny little brain come out on the fourms?
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#812 - 2013-09-12 00:47:22 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:

Your argument doesn't track with me...

In this situation the GMs are the police officers and the "speed limit" is clearly marked as "don't impersonate anyone."

Except they are not clearly marked. The letter of the law says that if I undock and rename my Ibis to Kenny's Ibis I am now to be punished for impersonating Kenny. Naming my Cheetah shuttle as I often do is now a gray area as I am misrepresenting myself.

We are literally being told lying is out the window and you better be doing everything with good intentions in mind, but scamming is still OK.

Sid Hudgens wrote:

I don't see where anyone from CCP has suggested that any violation of the "letter of the law" results in instant ban-hammer...?

As I understand a recent "100kph over" incident resulted in a first offence perma-ban-hammer swing.
For comparison, someone modifying game code to bot a 30 barge army while they sleep gets a 3 strike rule.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#813 - 2013-09-12 00:48:31 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:

It's against Federal Law to smoke ********* yet they do it in WA and CO, but the federal law is rarley enforced, but you push you luck then the local pd can charge you with a Federal Charge instead of a state charge to make it stick.

This rule is likely to be rarley enforced unless someone pushes there luck.

It's a legal tool at there desposial if they need to use it.

They should utilize the "we don't like you" clause of the EULA and ban you for posting crimes against humanity.

I think they like having people blindly support them.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#814 - 2013-09-12 00:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:

Your argument doesn't track with me...

In this situation the GMs are the police officers and the "speed limit" is clearly marked as "don't impersonate anyone."

Except they are not clearly marked. The letter of the law says that if I undock and rename my Ibis to Kenny's Ibis I am now to be punished for impersonating Kenny. Naming my Cheetah shuttle as I often do is now a gray area as I am misrepresenting myself.

We are literally being told lying is out the window and you better be doing everything with good intentions in mind, but scamming is still OK.

Sid Hudgens wrote:

I don't see where anyone from CCP has suggested that any violation of the "letter of the law" results in instant ban-hammer...?

As I understand a recent "100kph over" incident resulted in a first offence perma-ban-hammer swing.
For comparison, someone modifying game code to bot a 30 barge army while they sleep gets a 3 strike rule.

So you're saying that botting is not as evil as scamming...

No wait, not you but the GMs

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sam Alkawe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#815 - 2013-09-12 00:50:16 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:

Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Do we know CCP is going to use this impersonation clause "a lot"? You would think that perhaps the GMs would use some discretion and only use it in extreme situations ... because ... I don't know ... they are concerned with "consumer good-will?"

Unlike the catch-all clause, the other terms in the ToS are actually there for day-to-day use. Remember the thing I said about "looking arbitrary"? It's not arbitrary if something's explicitly forbidden and you act on it. It is however arbitrary if you disallow something and then don't act on it.
I'm not going to claim I know how often that rule will be used, because that'd be dishonest. But the fact that there is a rule against misrepresentation now means that it's going to be used.


Foul language and hate speech is "explicitly forbidden" and rarely acted upon ... so this would seem to be arbitrary. Why are people not as upset about this clause?


Because unless it's a really bad case, nobody will really report you for that. And if it is a really bad case, then nobody will complain about the ban because it's a really bad case. With scamming every case is the equivalent of a bad case (to the victim). Hence why the difference.

Although, to be fair, that could be another area for change (is there a clarification of what is foul language? What about hate speech? I don't know; haven't read), but that's not why we are here, is it?
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#816 - 2013-09-12 00:50:54 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Foul language and hate speech is "explicitly forbidden" and rarely acted upon ... so this would seem to be arbitrary. Why are people not as upset about this clause?

GMs actually hand out temporary mutes quite happily if somebody makes them aware of it, so it does get acted upon. They don't pull out the big guns and outright ban people if somebody goes around and calls Ev0ke Nazis, but it gets sanctioned. (But since CCP probably don't have the manpower to continually watch all chat channels, this depends on people writing petitions.)
John Ryuk
C0NC0RD P0LICE DEPT.
#817 - 2013-09-12 00:51:29 UTC
Anyway, this change was brought around do to people impersonating, CCP GM's and or Devs and scamming new players and making them quit.

This is likley not to be enforced unless you try impersonating CCP or it's staff. So can we please let this die and stop beating a dead horse.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#818 - 2013-09-12 00:51:58 UTC
Le Creed wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it.

Yeah !!

Those pesky scammers and griefers are ruining my mining operation!

DOWN WITH SCAMMERS~~~

Mining operation where you whip your slaves back and forth right?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Le Creed
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#819 - 2013-09-12 00:54:36 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Le Creed wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
John Ryuk wrote:
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it.

Yeah !!

Those pesky scammers and griefers are ruining my mining operation!

DOWN WITH SCAMMERS~~~

Mining operation where you whip your slaves back and forth right?


It's the slaves that are doing the heavy lifting, yes. But I can't have them being scammed out of the minerals they are harvesting. It hurts my bottom line!
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2013-09-12 00:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sirane Elrek
John Ryuk wrote:
Anyway, this change was brought around do to people impersonating, CCP GM's and or Devs and scamming new players and making them quit.

says who

impersonating a dev or GM was forbidden even before this change so I'm gonna have to see some proof for your claim here