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GM clarification on rewording of the Terms of Service

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Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#281 - 2013-09-11 14:58:53 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Yeah, I tend to agree. Can we get someone more senior in CCP to chime in here? This has descended into bizzaro land at this point.


It's like CCP is in a hole, trying to get out. And a bunch of players are staring down at them, yelling 'Just put up a ladder!'

So of course, they keep digging.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-09-11 14:59:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Andski wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player.


I read "we may take punitive action against you if you represent another one of your own characters via another character."

You can't be serious. So if I allow this account to lapse because I do not intend to use it for a while, I literally cannot handle any in-game business through another character without risking a potential ban? Stop trying to claim that this is not a policy change, because it clearly is, and it's a really bad one.


If the current situation stays, you will have the duty of proving your alt is indeed the alt of Andski for example.

From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

More work to be done on your side than on the other side to be safe.


Except for the part this has been happening for many years now. People EVEMAIL the main going "is this really you?" you reply and all is well. This is standard operating procedure for many forms of business in EVE.

It seems the GM team has no concept of how to actually play EVE and is shooting from the HIP making things up as they go.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#283 - 2013-09-11 14:59:20 UTC
What was the reason for this change, does anyone know? My theory is that a GM was scammed P

Yours sincerely

Thy Mathammi
CEO of GoodsWarm

Being serious for a moment, all of the player responses, validations and confirmations are pretty sane and sensible. There ARE ways to verify identity but it just comes down to a matter of experience and common sense. If you're in a position of having a few billion ISK scammed from you and you didn't learn how to avoid it during the time it took you to accumulate it... sorry, you really should have taken more precautions.

Why not have one of the NPC's scam a player during the initial newbie mission chain? People know that EVE can be heartless of full of trickery - show them. Give them a tutorial on how to verify identity, use the search, check corp info, history, etc. Maybe wait a few days until they're more familiar with the game, instead of adding more overload in the initial chains.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#284 - 2013-09-11 14:59:32 UTC
Should go ahead and say "no scamming allowed" and then just don't prosecute petitions on scamming.

You'd still get less work than what this brings about.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
David Magnus
#285 - 2013-09-11 14:59:41 UTC
I can understand trying to keep things "in-game" but no longer allowing people to claim they are the "Real Life" person behind another account or character.

However, not allowing people to impersonate in-game entities is hilariously stupid.

Does that make spying a bannable offence? If you join a corp pretending to be a loyal member but are really feeding intel to your friends, does that break this rule?

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/fight-us-maybe

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2013-09-11 14:59:57 UTC
This thread makes me want to reg an alt,
name it Solstice Project's Alt and move it to Hek.

Then I'll run around pretending to be me on the Alt,
while at the same time denying it on my main.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2013-09-11 15:01:34 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-09-11 15:03:22 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Andski wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player.


I read "we may take punitive action against you if you represent another one of your own characters via another character."

You can't be serious. So if I allow this account to lapse because I do not intend to use it for a while, I literally cannot handle any in-game business through another character without risking a potential ban? Stop trying to claim that this is not a policy change, because it clearly is, and it's a really bad one.


If the current situation stays, you will have the duty of proving your alt is indeed the alt of Andski for example.

From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

More work to be done on your side than on the other side to be safe.


Except for the part this has been happening for many years now. People EVEMAIL the main going "is this really you?" you reply and all is well. This is standard operating procedure for many forms of business in EVE.

It seems the GM team has no concept of how to actually play EVE and is shooting from the HIP making things up as they go.


In Andski example, it is clearly written that the account is lapsed so he cannot answer evemail right?

CCP is basicly throwing the ball on your side insetad of the other. They are saying "prove who the hell you are if you want to do buisness". If you cannot prove it yourself, then you may continue with your dealings but be aware you are doing illegal buisness.

It obviously makes scamming much harder to pull off but with the clarification that was provided, it seems that if you prove to be who you try to make belive you are, then it will be fair game.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#289 - 2013-09-11 15:03:23 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify


Actually, if you're on your main, and say that your alt is 'x'... Isn't that impersonating your alt?
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2013-09-11 15:03:49 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
This thread makes me want to reg an alt,
name it Solstice Project's Alt and move it to Hek.

Then I'll run around pretending to be me on the Alt,
while at the same time denying it on my main.


What about the other way around? The Mittani is and always has been a Yeep alt.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-09-11 15:04:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify


Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL?
thee lous3
Tech III Bone Cancer
#292 - 2013-09-11 15:04:47 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Yeah, I tend to agree. Can we get someone more senior in CCP to chime in here? This has descended into bizzaro land at this point.


All in favour?

Aye!
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-09-11 15:05:52 UTC
Pretty sure we're not getting any changes to the ToS reversed. Lying about who you are in Eve is now against the rules. Just going to call it as I see it. This is an official SCC, Star Citizen Change. CCP is worried about the coming carebear apocalypse when Star Citizen is released and will be taking steps over the next year and 1/2 to reign in the bad guys (i.e. content creators) in hopes of keeping the bears.

It won't work. Making a better Eve might work. I'll just drop some words from the profit here:

"Imagine the kind of stories people would read about EVE if the carebears got their wish. 'In EVE Online, some people mined. They arranged their mining lasers, and then they did something else for several minutes. Sign up for your free 14 day trial now!'" -- James 315

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Madeleine Lowery
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2013-09-11 15:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Madeleine Lowery
So, let's test Aryth's claim here: I'm Dersen Lowery's alt. Same last name, same faction, same "race," same corp, but a different account, because it's generally nice to have scouts on different accounts.

Did I just screw myself over by claiming to be what I actually am, on a character who is named, specced and described specifically to be identifiable as Dersen's alt (her bio says she's his sister)?

Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practice of having a character apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies?

He's absolutely right that, taken at face value, that language has profound reverberations through the game.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2013-09-11 15:15:12 UTC
Madeleine Lowery wrote:
Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practice of having a character apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies?


If I claim to be part of the group goonswarm but I'm actually part of ncdot, that's impersonating a group. oh **** son, spies are now petition-able. Wait till digi hears!
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2013-09-11 15:15:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify


Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL?



This is the assumption of "alt" being on a different account.

This is false.

An alt (if you use that word) is one of the additional character slots on the same account.

A second account is a second account and has nothing to do with the first account.

Therefore, if you are an alt of a main, you have the same amount of access to evemail accountwide.

So no, you could not reply to the evemail, because you could not log into the game or the forums or have any other way of knowing there was an evemail (unless 3rd party comms like ts3/vent/mumble.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#297 - 2013-09-11 15:17:21 UTC
Madeleine Lowery wrote:


He's absolutely right that, taken at face value, that language has profound reverberations through the game.


It will. Many scams will be borderline impossible unless you count on the other side to not petition it.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2013-09-11 15:21:50 UTC
If anyone outside the CFC wants to continue to run a CFC rental scam in light of these new rules then for 500m ISK you can use my name when you get petitioned and I'll tell the GMs you are a legit representative of the CFC.
Sam Alkawe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#299 - 2013-09-11 15:21:56 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?

by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify


Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL?



This is the assumption of "alt" being on a different account.

This is false.

An alt (if you use that word) is one of the additional character slots on the same account.

A second account is a second account and has nothing to do with the first account.

Therefore, if you are an alt of a main, you have the same amount of access to evemail accountwide.

So no, you could not reply to the evemail, because you could not log into the game or the forums or have any other way of knowing there was an evemail (unless 3rd party comms like ts3/vent/mumble.


Couldn't you use EVEGate or, hell, even EVEMon to know that you got an EVEmail?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#300 - 2013-09-11 15:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Kismeteer wrote:
Madeleine Lowery wrote:
Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practice of having a character apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies?


If I claim to be part of the group goonswarm but I'm actually part of ncdot, that's impersonating a group. oh **** son, spies are now petition-able. Wait till digi hears!


It looks like you could claim to be part of CFC, though, since coalitions are purely metagame ATM.

I really do wonder how far this goes. Let's say I'm in a mining corp, and I get wardecced. I set the deccing corp red, keep Local up, and munch on some rocks. Suddenly reds appear in Local, and before I can get my Mack out, they've warped right on top of me. Can I petition that the alt scout who was sitting on top of me in a cloaky, providing a warp-in, misled me into thinking I was safe by being in an NPC corp instead of the deccing corp?

EVE is going to become completely unrecognizable if it goes this way. (Though there may well be fewer NPC alts, which is a wee bit of a silver lining.)

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!