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Odyssey Skill Groups
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Valorius Rageway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-09-11 13:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Valorius Rageway
Hello everyone,

I would like to say I enjoy the new expansion.
However some things are disappointing me because it doesnt respect any logic.

It's all about skills and skill groups.

First of all,

  • The "SHIELD" group is incorrectly named "SHIELDS" while in any other window of the game, we see "Shield" in singular ...
    • Make a show info on a ship, you will see the informations about the shield : "Shield Capacity", "Shield recharge time" etc.


That was the first issue.
The second issue I found is about the "Tactical" skills and the "Electronic Systems" skillgroup

  • The "Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration" skill is right now under the "Electronic Systems" group, which contains only EWAR-related skills.
    • The "Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration" skill is right now under the "Gunnery" group, although this skill works with missiles too, not only turrets, and the "Weapon Upgrades" and "Advanced Weapon Upgrades" have been moved out of this group too...
    Please, again logic... Can you put the 2 Tactical skills together in another group, like "Engineering" ? A neutral group ?
    And then you can rename the "ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS" group by "ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEMS", which reflects what it actually contains.


It's all about logic !

Please support it I want Eve Online to be perfect or at least not far from it.

Thank you CCP, and please do something about it.

Valorius,
Fly safe
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-09-11 14:10:05 UTC
too many words but overall reasonable

supported

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#3 - 2013-09-11 14:57:58 UTC
Something wrong with the thread 10 lines down?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=274742

How to win EVE
Valorius Rageway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-09-11 16:24:05 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Something wrong with the thread 10 lines down?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=274742


That thread is about only shield and armor, mine covers a larger part of skill groups.
And I offer some solutions too ;)

To answer, no there is nothing wrong about that thread ;)
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-09-11 17:05:22 UTC
Or how about just change it back it the way it was. I don't think it was hard to figure out shield and capacitor skills were under "Engineering" and armor skills were under "Mechanics" . By trying to make the learning curve of Eve easier they made more groups and complicated things.
Rengerel en Distel
#6 - 2013-09-12 11:21:13 UTC
As I said in the other thread, "armors" is incorrect. So armor and shields is correct. When the Icelandic vikings actually get the english correct, we shouldn't try and confuse them.

Also, adding more groups doesn't complicate anything. I agree the change wasn't needed, but it has hardly complicated things.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Valorius Rageway
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-09-12 22:34:27 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
As I said in the other thread, "armors" is incorrect. So armor and shields is correct. When the Icelandic vikings actually get the english correct, we shouldn't try and confuse them.

Also, adding more groups doesn't complicate anything. I agree the change wasn't needed, but it has hardly complicated things.

So just explain me why in over 10 years, the whole eve community spelled shield in singular ?
And why since the beginning the word shield is correctly named in the game client ?
Even after the patch ?

There is only one shield guy, the one that has the "shield hp", if there were more than one then we would have several shield status bar, but fortunately we have only one and that is what we want.

And don't tell me about those stories of star trek "the front shield" "the back shield" left right up and down and so on LOL.

Only one shield guy.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#8 - 2013-09-13 02:47:14 UTC
Valorius Rageway wrote:

  • The "SHIELD" group is incorrectly named "SHIELDS" while in any other window of the game, we see "Shield" in singular ...
    • Make a show info on a ship, you will see the informations about the shield : "Shield Capacity", "Shield recharge time" etc.
    Overall, the "ARMOR" group is in singular !!! Please, you have to choose between "ARMOR" and "SHIELD" or "ARMORS" and "SHIELDS" but not a mix of them...
    [/list]

    While I suffer from professionally diagnosed OCD I have to say that I'm happy that I haven't reached this level of anal retentiveness yet.

    CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
    Valorius Rageway
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #9 - 2013-09-13 04:37:35 UTC
    Lors Dornick wrote:

    While I suffer from professionally diagnosed OCD I have to say that I'm happy that I haven't reached this level of anal retentiveness yet.

    You have a very bad life ... but we don't care on this thread, friend ;)
    Inen
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #10 - 2013-09-13 13:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Inen
    Valorius Rageway wrote:
    Hello everyone,


    • The "SHIELD" group is incorrectly named "SHIELDS" while in any other window of the game, we see "Shield" in singular ...
      • Make a show info on a ship, you will see the informations about the shield : "Shield Capacity", "Shield recharge time" etc.




    I am assuming that "Shields" is being used as a noun.

    Your examples of "shield capacity" and "shield recharge time" are not "shield" in the singular; they are "shield" being used as an adjective which does not have a number (no adjective does I believe), e.g., he is attractive, and they are attractive.

    But, if the skill group names have an implied "Skills" at the end, then "Shields" would be incorrect (since it should be shield skills). I think there is something to this theory because "Missiles" has the same issue, but "Neural Enhancement" does not. "Neural Enhancements" can be used as a plural noun, but they went with singular instead which allows the idea of "Neural Enhancement Skills" with "Neural Enhancement" as an adjective as opposed to "Neural Enhancements" as a noun to conform with "Shields" and "Missiles." The better course would be to just add "Skills" to the ends of all the skill group names which confirms that the names are adjectival, and be done with it.
    Valorius Rageway
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #11 - 2013-09-13 13:21:37 UTC
    Inen wrote:

    I am assuming that "Shields" is being used as a noun.

    Your examples of "shield capacity" and "shield recharge time" are not "shield" in the singular; they are "shield" being used as an adjective which does not have a number (no adjective does I believe), e.g., he is attractive, and they are attractive.

    But, if the skill group names have an implied "Skills" at the end, then "Shields" would be incorrect (since it should be shield skills). I think there is something to this theory because "Missiles" has the same issue, but "Neural Enhancement" does not. Neural Enhancements can be used as a plural noun, but they went with singular instead which allows the idea of "Neural Enhancement Skills" as opposed to "Neural Enhancements" to conform with "Shields" and "Missiles." The better course would be to just add "Skills" to the ends of all the skill group names which confirms that the names are adjectival, and be done with it.


    I totally agree with you.
    But you forgot something : "Shield" is a noun too.

    And for the examples "Shield Capacity" "Shield Recharge Time", if it was for "Shields", then it should be "Shields Capacities", "Shields Recharge Times", and so on, do you follow me ? Like if there were multiple shields in the game...
    Inen
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #12 - 2013-09-13 13:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Inen
    Valorius Rageway wrote:
    Inen wrote:

    I am assuming that "Shields" is being used as a noun.

    Your examples of "shield capacity" and "shield recharge time" are not "shield" in the singular; they are "shield" being used as an adjective which does not have a number (no adjective does I believe), e.g., he is attractive, and they are attractive.

    But, if the skill group names have an implied "Skills" at the end, then "Shields" would be incorrect (since it should be shield skills). I think there is something to this theory because "Missiles" has the same issue, but "Neural Enhancement" does not. Neural Enhancements can be used as a plural noun, but they went with singular instead which allows the idea of "Neural Enhancement Skills" as opposed to "Neural Enhancements" to conform with "Shields" and "Missiles." The better course would be to just add "Skills" to the ends of all the skill group names which confirms that the names are adjectival, and be done with it.


    I totally agree with you.
    But you forgot something : "Shield" is a noun too.

    And for the examples "Shield Capacity" "Shield Recharge Time", if it was for "Shields", then it should be "Shields Capacities", "Shields Recharge Times", and so on, do you follow me ? Like if there were multiple shields in the game...


    I agree shield is a noun (and an adjective and a verb). Which is why when you say "Shields Capacities" you need to add an apostrophe so that the noun becomes possessive. Then you can use plural or singular possessive as needed: "Shields' Capacities." In this way, shield is still a noun in the possessive form (you can even say the "shield's capacity"). But you are implying that the shield owns the capacity, as opposed to the ship owning the shield capacity, so I am not sure that "Shields' Capacities" is the best way of saying it.

    Alternatively, with "Shield Capacities" "Shield" is used as an adjective.
    Valorius Rageway
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #13 - 2013-09-13 13:37:48 UTC
    Inen wrote:

    I agree shield is a noun (and an adjective and a verb). Which is why when you say "Shields Capacities" you need to add an apostrophe so that the noun becomes possessive. Then you can use plural or singular possessive as needed: "Shields' Capacities." In this way, shield is still a noun in the possessive form (you can even say the "shield's capacity").

    Alternatively, with "Shield Capacities" "Shield" is used as an adjective.

    I'm not sure where you want to go...
    Replacing Shields by Shield would solve all that.
    And it would not be a grammar or syntax mistake, definately

    Inen wrote:

    But you are implying that the shield owns the capacity, as opposed to the ship owning the shield capacity, so I am not sure that "shields' capacity" is the best way of saying it.

    But I totally disagree with that, the shield owns his capacity, since the capacity of a shield is inherent of it.

    capacity of a shield = the shield owns his capacity

    If it would be false I couldnt write this "capacity of the shield"


    ANYWAY the question is to know if we have several or a unique shield on our ships, and i see only one shield hp bar, right ?
    Inen
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #14 - 2013-09-13 14:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Inen
    TL;DR: adding "Skills" to the skill group name/heading fixes everything, and nouns are not adjectives.

    My only issue in this thread (and the other thread) is that people keep saying singular vs. plural but they are using these rules for adjectives and nouns as examples... it's a classic apples and oranges debate. It's not correct because the grammar rules of plural and singular do not apply to adjectives: an adjective has no number. And if you were to start using possessive nouns instead, it would lose brevity and become awkward.

    CCP has not stated whether the headings are nouns or adjectives. I assume they are nouns because they have used plural forms for some of the heading names which means that at least some of them are nouns. If they are all nouns (and I assume they are because of the plural forms), then they have mixed singular with plural.

    But using nouns as heading names is incorrect in my opinion (doing so implies that the group is a bunch of armor or shields, but that is not what the group is). The groups are skills, so in my opinion, it should be an adjective heading which means they do not carry a plural or singular form. You can relieve this by just adding the word skills at the end of every heading. Now, there is no question that the description of "Shield" or "Missile" is adjectival.

    With all this being said, I agree with your ends (conformity), but disagree with your means.

    Edit: Good God I'm bored Ugh
    Valorius Rageway
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2013-09-13 14:39:54 UTC
    Inen wrote:
    TL;DR: adding "Skills" to the skill group name/heading fixes everything, and nouns are not adjectives.

    My only issue in this thread (and the other thread) is that people keep saying singular vs. plural but they are using these rules for adjectives and nouns as examples... it's a classic apples and oranges debate. It's not correct because the grammar rules of plural and singular do not apply to adjectives: an adjective has no number. And if you were to start using possessive nouns instead, it would lose brevity and become awkward.

    CCP has not stated whether the headings are nouns or adjectives. I assume they are nouns because they have used plural forms for some of the heading names which means that at least some of them are nouns. If they are all nouns (and I assume they are because of the plural forms), then they have mixed singular with plural.

    But using nouns as heading names is incorrect in my opinion (doing so implies that the group is a bunch of armor or shields, but that is not what the group is). The groups are skills, so in my opinion, it should be an adjective heading which means they do not carry a plural or singular form. You can relieve this by just adding the word skills at the end of every heading. Now, there is no question that the description of "Shield" or "Missile" is adjectival.

    With all this being said, I agree with your ends (conformity), but disagree with your means.

    Edit: Good God I'm bored Ugh

    A smart approach ;)
    I dont think we should add "Skill" at the end of each group, would become too much in my opinion.

    With all that being said, the word shields is still incorrect since we have one unique shield. ;)
    CCP please react