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[Odyssey 1.1] Nosferatu mechanic change

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Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#661 - 2013-09-02 00:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Samas Sarum
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that I hypothetically agree to see the situation you describe as undesirable.

What would be your proposal for correcting this perceived imbalance?


The suggestions have already been made in this thread by others and myself. The major ones off the top of my head are:

1) Fitting costs compared to heavy neuts. Under the new system there will literally be no reason to fit a heavy NOS over a heavy neut as there already wasn't before this nerf as the usage numbers have shown. For being able to drain 3x as much and work all the time on every single ship every time it is indefensible to have cheaper fitting costs than a useless heavy NOS.

2) Drain amount. I'm not saying buff the drain amounts across the board, but the scaling of the drain amounts doesn't add up to me. Yes I know they're meant to keep up primarily tackle which doesn't scale with ship size, but keeping up cap for dps or prop mods isn't an unimaginable purpose, but heavy NOS's only drain 3x as much a small NOS while dps and prop modes' cost scales MUCH higher than that. I realize this is probably meant to keep them scaling at roughly the same rate as neuts do but see #1 as to why neuts are so much more useful to begin with, so tying the drain amount to them doesn't make sense to me.

3) Cycle times. This wasn't one of my reasons, not that I don't agree with it, I'm just not as familiar with it as others previously in this thread. They're too long for the heavy NOS to be used as a neut defense which is arguably they're only purpose as it leaves you at 0-cap too long leaving you vulnerable.
Webzy Phoenix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#662 - 2013-09-02 03:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Webzy Phoenix
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.

If you are in a BS and fighting a cruiser or frigate, you should be using a NEUT not a NOS...
If you want to use your 250 million isk Deadspace NOS on a BS, fight something bigger than a cruiser.

I think the change to the NOS mechanic, while not perfect, is a major improvement.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#663 - 2013-09-02 20:02:16 UTC
Webzy Phoenix wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.

If you are in a BS and fighting a cruiser or frigate, you should be using a NEUT not a NOS...
If you want to use your 250 million isk Deadspace NOS on a BS, fight something bigger than a cruiser.

I think the change to the NOS mechanic, while not perfect, is a major improvement.


"you should be using a neut not a NOS" for heavy NOS's is the opinion people are suggesting fixes to. Currently it is always true even if you are fighting BS's or larger and this nerf just further drives that point. Personally I don't think further nerfs to the platform NOS's are least popular on are a good idea until the underlying modules are fixed.
Aaron Kyoto
Frozen Silver.
Arkhos Core
#664 - 2013-09-03 15:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Kyoto
sounds like NOS is going to be a decent way to counter neuting, which previously could only be beaten by "inject cap and hope they can't run their neuts anymore" Roll

Example:
Ship 1 Neuts ship 2, once ship 2's cap is less than Ship 1's, he can proceed to counter-sap his opponents energy to run his own modules and hope his enemy's mods deactivate.

Might be a defense against a curse, but I doubt it would help much.

I feel like people are misunderstanding the purpose of Nosferatu somewhat, when they complain theirs won't be doing anything. It's a semi-offensive module that helps you. It's not designed to give you a lead like Neutralizers are, it's designed to help defend against excessive cap use, while making your opponent limp in his own.
Xaen
Telepathic Death Mimes
#665 - 2013-09-03 23:16:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I have another balance announcement for our Odyssey 1.1 release to share: we are going to make NOS good again.

In ye old times, Nosferatu was fairly broken. It used to drain cap from your target regardless of how much cap your target had, and deposit it into your cap pool. This meant you could generate cap from thin air as long as you could target any ship. We had nano Dominixs permanently cap stable by draining some cap-dry frig and all kinds of other nonsense.

Unfortunately when this got addressed, it was nerfed into the ground by basing the success of the NOS activation off the relative PERCENTAGE of cap for each ship. NOS went from extremely overpowered to fairly useless. You can never depend on your opponent having a higher % cap than you, and especially not when you're using a ship that wants to win the cap war by neutralizing the enemy.

Our plan for this is fairly simple - we want to make successful NOS activation based on relative cap amount, not percentage.

This means if you turn on your NOS, and you have 125 cap in your cap pool, and your opponent has 370, the NOS works regardless of relative % cap.

The biggest effect here will most likely be that any time you're fighting up a class (frig vs cruiser, cruiser vs BS, etc) NOS will become a much more attractive choice. It also means that in fights with several ship sizes present, deciding on a target for your NOS should be more intuitive (target something big).

Gimme feedback o/

(PS - this would of course effect all sizes and all metas)


What about the capacitor penalty of MWDs? It's a percentage cap-nerf too. Maybe it should be? Just throwing the idea out there.

P.S. Did your web guys seriously break chrome's ability to let me resize your ALWAYS-TOO-TINY textbox?!?!?! That was the reason I started using chrome, FFS!

I get shouty crackers a lot. Deal with it.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#666 - 2013-09-03 23:38:30 UTC
Aaron Kyoto wrote:
sounds like NOS is going to be a decent way to counter neuting, which previously could only be beaten by "inject cap and hope they can't run their neuts anymore" Roll

Example:
Ship 1 Neuts ship 2, once ship 2's cap is less than Ship 1's, he can proceed to counter-sap his opponents energy to run his own modules and hope his enemy's mods deactivate.

Might be a defense against a curse, but I doubt it would help much.

I feel like people are misunderstanding the purpose of Nosferatu somewhat, when they complain theirs won't be doing anything. It's a semi-offensive module that helps you. It's not designed to give you a lead like Neutralizers are, it's designed to help defend against excessive cap use, while making your opponent limp in his own.


What part of your answer is changed from the previous NOS mechanic? If you're under neuting pressure the change discussed in this thread has zero effect.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#667 - 2013-09-04 00:01:54 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that I hypothetically agree to see the situation you describe as undesirable.

What would be your proposal for correcting this perceived imbalance?


The suggestions have already been made in this thread by others and myself. The major ones off the top of my head are:

1) Fitting costs compared to heavy neuts. Under the new system there will literally be no reason to fit a heavy NOS over a heavy neut as there already wasn't before this nerf as the usage numbers have shown. For being able to drain 3x as much and work all the time on every single ship every time it is indefensible to have cheaper fitting costs than a useless heavy NOS.

2) Drain amount. I'm not saying buff the drain amounts across the board, but the scaling of the drain amounts doesn't add up to me. Yes I know they're meant to keep up primarily tackle which doesn't scale with ship size, but keeping up cap for dps or prop mods isn't an unimaginable purpose, but heavy NOS's only drain 3x as much a small NOS while dps and prop modes' cost scales MUCH higher than that. I realize this is probably meant to keep them scaling at roughly the same rate as neuts do but see #1 as to why neuts are so much more useful to begin with, so tying the drain amount to them doesn't make sense to me.

3) Cycle times. This wasn't one of my reasons, not that I don't agree with it, I'm just not as familiar with it as others previously in this thread. They're too long for the heavy NOS to be used as a neut defense which is arguably they're only purpose as it leaves you at 0-cap too long leaving you vulnerable.


I have some sympathy with point 3. shorter cycle time rather than larger drain amount would indeed be an improvement for the higher meta nosferatus.

point 1: hmm, doesn't feel right to me. But I have do data to go on - just purely subjective.

point 2: cap recharge amount does not scale linearly with ship size either. Neither does cap injection surplus. Neither does the cargo bay size. Making NOS amount scale linearly with the mod size would be OP.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#668 - 2013-09-04 03:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Samas Sarum
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that I hypothetically agree to see the situation you describe as undesirable.

What would be your proposal for correcting this perceived imbalance?


The suggestions have already been made in this thread by others and myself. The major ones off the top of my head are:

1) Fitting costs compared to heavy neuts. Under the new system there will literally be no reason to fit a heavy NOS over a heavy neut as there already wasn't before this nerf as the usage numbers have shown. For being able to drain 3x as much and work all the time on every single ship every time it is indefensible to have cheaper fitting costs than a useless heavy NOS.

2) Drain amount. I'm not saying buff the drain amounts across the board, but the scaling of the drain amounts doesn't add up to me. Yes I know they're meant to keep up primarily tackle which doesn't scale with ship size, but keeping up cap for dps or prop mods isn't an unimaginable purpose, but heavy NOS's only drain 3x as much a small NOS while dps and prop modes' cost scales MUCH higher than that. I realize this is probably meant to keep them scaling at roughly the same rate as neuts do but see #1 as to why neuts are so much more useful to begin with, so tying the drain amount to them doesn't make sense to me.

3) Cycle times. This wasn't one of my reasons, not that I don't agree with it, I'm just not as familiar with it as others previously in this thread. They're too long for the heavy NOS to be used as a neut defense which is arguably they're only purpose as it leaves you at 0-cap too long leaving you vulnerable.


I have some sympathy with point 3. shorter cycle time rather than larger drain amount would indeed be an improvement for the higher meta nosferatus.

point 1: hmm, doesn't feel right to me. But I have do data to go on - just purely subjective.

point 2: cap recharge amount does not scale linearly with ship size either. Neither does cap injection surplus. Neither does the cargo bay size. Making NOS amount scale linearly with the mod size would be OP.



Depends on what you feel the role of NOS's should be. If it is only to keep up tackle when being neuted then there's no reason to have different size NOS's since tackle cost doesn't scale with ship size. If it is to improve your ships recharge then cap boosters are far stronger and work 100% of the time against any opponent at any range. If it is an offensive module then a heavy neut is far better at that job and works 100% of the time against any opponent (see the theme?).

I would argue the best role for heavy NOS's would be as a defense against neuting to keep tackle or prop or dps or tank running (not all, but a small subset of those choices). Small NOS's do serve this role well but the NOS's get bad at it pretty quick as you move to medium and heavy. 3.3 GJ/sec on a small NOS can keep up far more on a neuted frigate than the 10 GJ/sec on a neuted BS with a heavy NOS.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#669 - 2013-09-04 08:10:18 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
The suggestions have already been made in this thread by others and myself. The major ones off the top of my head are:

1) Fitting costs compared to heavy neuts. Under the new system there will literally be no reason to fit a heavy NOS over a heavy neut as there already wasn't before this nerf as the usage numbers have shown. For being able to drain 3x as much and work all the time on every single ship every time it is indefensible to have cheaper fitting costs than a useless heavy NOS.

2) Drain amount. I'm not saying buff the drain amounts across the board, but the scaling of the drain amounts doesn't add up to me. Yes I know they're meant to keep up primarily tackle which doesn't scale with ship size, but keeping up cap for dps or prop mods isn't an unimaginable purpose, but heavy NOS's only drain 3x as much a small NOS while dps and prop modes' cost scales MUCH higher than that. I realize this is probably meant to keep them scaling at roughly the same rate as neuts do but see #1 as to why neuts are so much more useful to begin with, so tying the drain amount to them doesn't make sense to me.

3) Cycle times. This wasn't one of my reasons, not that I don't agree with it, I'm just not as familiar with it as others previously in this thread. They're too long for the heavy NOS to be used as a neut defense which is arguably they're only purpose as it leaves you at 0-cap too long leaving you vulnerable.


IMO, the problem that heavy Nos has now that the mechanic change has gone through is that it's now impossible to balance.

You can improve the drain amount to reflect the greater cap needs of BS weapons and active hardeners, and decrease the cycle time to help its neut-defence role, but you may end up with a module that is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered, depending on the situation. Against small ships it's still close to useless, but against capitals it starts approaching heavy neuts in effectiveness and drain rate, and hence obsoleting them! Particularly when you consider that with friendly capitals on the field you can often refit to select your desired combination of Nos and neuts on the fly.

Now, some might say that this is all fine, because the expressed role of Nos is to fight up a class, and so it's entirely fine for BS Nos to be highly effective against capitals. I'm not comfortable with that. The great thing about old Nos was that it was reliable against all opponents and never deviated much in power depending on the situation - it was a self-balancing mechanic. Now its power is entirely situational which, while opening up new tactics ofc, makes balancing it a real pain.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#670 - 2013-09-04 14:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Samas Sarum
Gypsio III wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
The suggestions have already been made in this thread by others and myself. The major ones off the top of my head are:

1) Fitting costs compared to heavy neuts. Under the new system there will literally be no reason to fit a heavy NOS over a heavy neut as there already wasn't before this nerf as the usage numbers have shown. For being able to drain 3x as much and work all the time on every single ship every time it is indefensible to have cheaper fitting costs than a useless heavy NOS.

2) Drain amount. I'm not saying buff the drain amounts across the board, but the scaling of the drain amounts doesn't add up to me. Yes I know they're meant to keep up primarily tackle which doesn't scale with ship size, but keeping up cap for dps or prop mods isn't an unimaginable purpose, but heavy NOS's only drain 3x as much a small NOS while dps and prop modes' cost scales MUCH higher than that. I realize this is probably meant to keep them scaling at roughly the same rate as neuts do but see #1 as to why neuts are so much more useful to begin with, so tying the drain amount to them doesn't make sense to me.

3) Cycle times. This wasn't one of my reasons, not that I don't agree with it, I'm just not as familiar with it as others previously in this thread. They're too long for the heavy NOS to be used as a neut defense which is arguably they're only purpose as it leaves you at 0-cap too long leaving you vulnerable.


IMO, the problem that heavy Nos has now that the mechanic change has gone through is that it's now impossible to balance.

You can improve the drain amount to reflect the greater cap needs of BS weapons and active hardeners, and decrease the cycle time to help its neut-defence role, but you may end up with a module that is simultaneously overpowered and underpowered, depending on the situation. Against small ships it's still close to useless, but against capitals it starts approaching heavy neuts in effectiveness and drain rate, and hence obsoleting them! Particularly when you consider that with friendly capitals on the field you can often refit to select your desired combination of Nos and neuts on the fly.

Now, some might say that this is all fine, because the expressed role of Nos is to fight up a class, and so it's entirely fine for BS Nos to be highly effective against capitals. I'm not comfortable with that. The great thing about old Nos was that it was reliable against all opponents and never deviated much in power depending on the situation - it was a self-balancing mechanic. Now its power is entirely situational which, while opening up new tactics ofc, makes balancing it a real pain.


Agreed, if CCP hadn't kept the PvE mechanic the same the heavies would literally get zero use. People won't suddenly start using heavy NOS's now that that capitals are the only platform they work on when heavy neuts are far superior at that game.

How this duel mechanic for PvP and PvE, the former of which is entirely undesirable by anything larger than a frigate and the latter works effectively for all ship classes in missions, doesn't scream a broken system to CCP is beyond me.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#671 - 2013-09-09 18:03:07 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Webzy Phoenix wrote:
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.

If you are in a BS and fighting a cruiser or frigate, you should be using a NEUT not a NOS...
If you want to use your 250 million isk Deadspace NOS on a BS, fight something bigger than a cruiser.

I think the change to the NOS mechanic, while not perfect, is a major improvement.


"you should be using a neut not a NOS" for heavy NOS's is the opinion people are suggesting fixes to. Currently it is always true even if you are fighting BS's or larger and this nerf just further drives that point. Personally I don't think further nerfs to the platform NOS's are least popular on are a good idea until the underlying modules are fixed.

... Or simply bring the right tool for the job.

If you ARE planning on fighting a BS, create your fit to compliment your NOS.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#672 - 2013-09-09 18:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Samas Sarum wrote:
Aaron Kyoto wrote:
sounds like NOS is going to be a decent way to counter neuting, which previously could only be beaten by "inject cap and hope they can't run their neuts anymore" Roll

Example:
Ship 1 Neuts ship 2, once ship 2's cap is less than Ship 1's, he can proceed to counter-sap his opponents energy to run his own modules and hope his enemy's mods deactivate.

Might be a defense against a curse, but I doubt it would help much.

I feel like people are misunderstanding the purpose of Nosferatu somewhat, when they complain theirs won't be doing anything. It's a semi-offensive module that helps you. It's not designed to give you a lead like Neutralizers are, it's designed to help defend against excessive cap use, while making your opponent limp in his own.


What part of your answer is changed from the previous NOS mechanic? If you're under neuting pressure the change discussed in this thread has zero effect.

Completely incorrect, as has been shown countless times.

If Ship 2 is a smaller class he doesn't need wait for anything his cap is lower at all times. Even if ship one cuts his neut (either because he views it as pointless or simply doesn't have enough cap to keep it running continuously, as often happens) a smaller vessel likely will STILL be able to run it's NOS... because it is much easier to keep NOS running under the new conditions.

Of course, what could he possibly do with that spare cap? Surely no one needs cap to repair damage they may have taken on the way in (or on going damage from drones), or to run a MWD, or perhaps even some EW to help take pressure off your buddies.

Cap, pffft, who needs it anyway eh? Smile

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#673 - 2013-09-10 10:03:00 UTC
FFS not this nonsense again Ranger1, I've explained this twice already.

If you're under cap pressure from a larger ship then you will be neuted to zero cap in very quick order. When you're at zero cap there is no difference in Nos operation between the two mechanics - the Nos provides the same amount of cap at the same rate in both situations.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#674 - 2013-09-10 15:24:00 UTC
It seems that my earlier post that PVE players would not be affected by this change was inaccurate. Sorry for giving you guys bad information on that.

After reviewing the actual effect of this change on PVE we have decided to leave it alone and let it function in the new way, which mirrors the way it works in PVP, rather than try to split the function of NOS into a PVE and PVP version. Along with the consistency this provides, we also prefer that under the new mechanic you can't infinitely NOS any NPC nearby and instead have to work a bit harder to take full advantage of energy vampires.

I've seen speculation that NPCs have 1GJ cap and that's why % based drain always worked before, but now does not. This is not the case and most NPCs have base cap that is slightly below average base cap for their class. As an example, incursion BS rats have around 3800GJ base cap, meaning that a player BS would be able to NOS them successfully at between 50% and 75% of its cap total. Just like player vs player situations, NOSing NPCs in a ship class higher than yours should be very easy.

Again, sorry for the misinformation, if you have more questions about this please post them here.

@ccp_rise
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#675 - 2013-09-10 15:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
CCP Rise wrote:
It seems that my earlier post that PVE players would not be affected by this change was inaccurate. Sorry for giving you guys bad information on that.

After reviewing the actual effect of this change on PVE we have decided to leave it alone and let it function in the new way, which mirrors the way it works in PVP, rather than try to split the function of NOS into a PVE and PVP version. Along with the consistency this provides, we also prefer that under the new mechanic you can't infinitely NOS any NPC nearby and instead have to work a bit harder to take full advantage of energy vampires.

I've seen speculation that NPCs have 1GJ cap and that's why % based drain always worked before, but now does not. This is not the case and most NPCs have base cap that is slightly below average base cap for their class. As an example, incursion BS rats have around 3800GJ base cap, meaning that a player BS would be able to NOS them successfully at between 50% and 75% of its cap total. Just like player vs player situations, NOSing NPCs in a ship class higher than yours should be very easy.

Again, sorry for the misinformation, if you have more questions about this please post them here.


does that mean you can neut NPC's dry?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#676 - 2013-09-10 18:32:49 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
FFS not this nonsense again Ranger1, I've explained this twice already.

If you're under cap pressure from a larger ship then you will be neuted to zero cap in very quick order. When you're at zero cap there is no difference in Nos operation between the two mechanics - the Nos provides the same amount of cap at the same rate in both situations.

Not only are you incorrect again, but you didn't actually read what was posted.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#677 - 2013-09-10 18:35:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
It seems that my earlier post that PVE players would not be affected by this change was inaccurate. Sorry for giving you guys bad information on that.

After reviewing the actual effect of this change on PVE we have decided to leave it alone and let it function in the new way, which mirrors the way it works in PVP, rather than try to split the function of NOS into a PVE and PVP version. Along with the consistency this provides, we also prefer that under the new mechanic you can't infinitely NOS any NPC nearby and instead have to work a bit harder to take full advantage of energy vampires.

I've seen speculation that NPCs have 1GJ cap and that's why % based drain always worked before, but now does not. This is not the case and most NPCs have base cap that is slightly below average base cap for their class. As an example, incursion BS rats have around 3800GJ base cap, meaning that a player BS would be able to NOS them successfully at between 50% and 75% of its cap total. Just like player vs player situations, NOSing NPCs in a ship class higher than yours should be very easy.

Again, sorry for the misinformation, if you have more questions about this please post them here.


does that mean you can neut NPC's dry?

Good question.

Previously NOS seem to lose effectiveness vs NPC's after a few cycles. Do you know if this will be altered in some way?

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Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#678 - 2013-09-10 18:39:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
It seems that my earlier post that PVE players would not be affected by this change was inaccurate. Sorry for giving you guys bad information on that.

After reviewing the actual effect of this change on PVE we have decided to leave it alone and let it function in the new way, which mirrors the way it works in PVP, rather than try to split the function of NOS into a PVE and PVP version. Along with the consistency this provides, we also prefer that under the new mechanic you can't infinitely NOS any NPC nearby and instead have to work a bit harder to take full advantage of energy vampires.

I've seen speculation that NPCs have 1GJ cap and that's why % based drain always worked before, but now does not. This is not the case and most NPCs have base cap that is slightly below average base cap for their class. As an example, incursion BS rats have around 3800GJ base cap, meaning that a player BS would be able to NOS them successfully at between 50% and 75% of its cap total. Just like player vs player situations, NOSing NPCs in a ship class higher than yours should be very easy.

Again, sorry for the misinformation, if you have more questions about this please post them here.


does that mean you can neut NPC's dry?
This exactly.

NPCs might have a base cap tied to their stats. But nothing leads us to believe that the capacitor and cap usage is actually something that the server is spending CPU cycles on keeping track of.

NPCs can perma-mwd and fire uninterupted, even when being heavily neuted.

Have you actually tested this, or is it just theory?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#679 - 2013-09-10 18:55:49 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
It seems that my earlier post that PVE players would not be affected by this change was inaccurate. Sorry for giving you guys bad information on that.

After reviewing the actual effect of this change on PVE we have decided to leave it alone and let it function in the new way, which mirrors the way it works in PVP, rather than try to split the function of NOS into a PVE and PVP version. Along with the consistency this provides, we also prefer that under the new mechanic you can't infinitely NOS any NPC nearby and instead have to work a bit harder to take full advantage of energy vampires.

I've seen speculation that NPCs have 1GJ cap and that's why % based drain always worked before, but now does not. This is not the case and most NPCs have base cap that is slightly below average base cap for their class. As an example, incursion BS rats have around 3800GJ base cap, meaning that a player BS would be able to NOS them successfully at between 50% and 75% of its cap total. Just like player vs player situations, NOSing NPCs in a ship class higher than yours should be very easy.

Again, sorry for the misinformation, if you have more questions about this please post them here.


does that mean you can neut NPC's dry?
This exactly.

NPCs might have a base cap tied to their stats. But nothing leads us to believe that the capacitor and cap usage is actually something that the server is spending CPU cycles on keeping track of.

NPCs can perma-mwd and fire uninterupted, even when being heavily neuted.

Have you actually tested this, or is it just theory?

I have a feeling that the answer is going to be that the NPC's base cap doesn't go down from it's base line. I had always assumed that a timer of some sort was in effect, or that there was a limited arbitrary pool of cap that was affected by NOS. The new mechanic might have broken this somehow if that is the case, but what it's end effect will be could go either way.

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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#680 - 2013-09-10 18:58:32 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
does that mean you can neut NPC's dry?
This exactly.

NPCs might have a base cap tied to their stats. But nothing leads us to believe that the capacitor and cap usage is actually something that the server is spending CPU cycles on keeping track of.

NPCs can perma-mwd and fire uninterupted, even when being heavily neuted.

Have you actually tested this, or is it just theory?

Nos and neuts do (or did prior to the patch at least) have a minor effect on NPCs - they apply a modifier that decreases the chances of an NPC repairing itself.

This wouldn't do much against incursion rats, of course, since those don't have local tanks.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque