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Live fire training for the Tribal Liberation Force (and allies)

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2013-09-10 17:10:34 UTC
Drax Concrilla wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Very eloquent, but there's no real argument made other than an appeal to emotion. That counts for little in war, though.


I apologize, sir, I will be more clear.

That they know there will be danger does not absolve you of any responsibility for the deaths. You are the one with the gun, and you are the one launching the salvo. No words will change that.


You're almost there my friend. I will not deny the portions I have emphasized above; however, it remains the Capsule-captain's responsibility to react and protect both himself and his crew in such a situation. Thus, the term live fire exercise.

We are the cause.

We are not the effect.

Should the Capsule-captain prove himself competent he will succeed in preserving his ship, and his crew. In many of the exercises I run I don't even restrict the opposing captain's warp drive. Yet they still freely fly their crew into apparent danger, quite recklessly, and do not take the out I have provided them.

Tell me that these pilots are not responsible for their crew's demise?

Now, refraining from using a Warp Scrambler is not the live fire exercise standard, I will admit. However, one simply cannot absolve the Capsule-captain of their responsibility to protect their ship and crew when they had every tool at their disposal to escape.


When you pull the trigger, physics is not the killer. By all means contend that the deaths are necessary, but never try to weasel out of responsibility, Captain.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#42 - 2013-09-10 17:26:37 UTC
Drax Concrilla wrote:


Now, refraining from using a Warp Scrambler is not the live fire exercise standard, I will admit. However, one simply cannot absolve the Capsule-captain of their responsibility to protect their ship and crew when they had every tool at their disposal to escape.


Particularly so in today's environment of lax militia standards. More than once I have entered a military control point, and engaged capsuleers that had not even had their weapons hardpoints uncapped. Instead, their ships had been engineered solely for speed and warp stability, as if they were to be competing in some sort of race. These ships were fit to run, not to defend and control militia strategic assets. And yet these people are rewarded with good scrip and praised for a job well done, simply for standing a post for a time. Would a ground troop be so well accepted were he to stand his post in running shoes, with an unloaded weapon?
Drax Concrilla
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2013-09-10 17:52:39 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When you pull the trigger, physics is not the killer. By all means contend that the deaths are necessary, but never try to weasel out of responsibility, Captain.


I accept full responsibility for willingly firing my weapons upon other capsuleers, I've never tried to avoid that. Yet, I refuse to take sole responsibility for the deaths of inept captain's crews. Especially when I have not precluded them from escaping the situation.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2013-09-10 17:54:32 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Drax Concrilla wrote:


Now, refraining from using a Warp Scrambler is not the live fire exercise standard, I will admit. However, one simply cannot absolve the Capsule-captain of their responsibility to protect their ship and crew when they had every tool at their disposal to escape.


Particularly so in today's environment of lax militia standards. More than once I have entered a military control point, and engaged capsuleers that had not even had their weapons hardpoints uncapped. Instead, their ships had been engineered solely for speed and warp stability, as if they were to be competing in some sort of race. These ships were fit to run, not to defend and control militia strategic assets. And yet these people are rewarded with good scrip and praised for a job well done, simply for standing a post for a time. Would a ground troop be so well accepted were he to stand his post in running shoes, with an unloaded weapon?


I think you are out of date, Captain. The baseline defenders prevent the capturing of the military complex.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#45 - 2013-09-10 17:56:13 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
That they know there will be danger does not absolve you of any responsibility for the deaths. You are the one with the gun, and you are the one launching the salvo. No words will change that.


Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When you pull the trigger, physics is not the killer. By all means contend that the deaths are necessary, but never try to weasel out of responsibility, Captain.


Just as a drill instructor is responsible for any bruises a soldier incurs during physical training, I am responsible for the oblivion of the crew of incompetent Minmatar militia capsuleers. It is of course unfortunate that those injuries happen, but they are necessary in order to improve performance in the long run.

By signing up to fly with a capsuleer, they knowingly enlisted in a very dangerous endeavor where death is around every corner, even if the circumstance is something as trivial as a training exercise. Since they are fine with that, I have no regret or remorse about their deaths. Whether I am wholly, partially or not at all responsible is moot.

All that matters is that the one in charge -- the capsuleer -- learned a lesson and will be better prepared in the future.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#46 - 2013-09-10 18:18:35 UTC
For the curious and inquisitive, I have set up the Point Blank Alliance killboard to display an ongoing record of training-related engagements we have had. Due to technical limitations, it cannot automatically follow alliances that support a militia, so those had to be added manually. Right now, in addition to the Minmatar and Gallente militias, it is monitoring:


  • WINMATAR.
  • Late Night Alliance
  • T.R.I.A.D
  • Ushra'Khan
  • Electus Matari
  • Defiant Legacy


I am sure I missed some big ones, so if you could indicate who else I should be tracking, I would be grateful.

So far, Late Night Alliance have the best performance, passing a majority of tests, and occasionally collaborating in order to destroy real Amarr enemies.

The poorest performance has been seen out of the Gallente militia (Federal Defense Union plus participating corporations). Many of them appear to lack basic combat training and fitting sense. Thankfully, Zao Amadues has been doing an admirable job showing them where they err. The alliance with the poorest performance so far is WINMATAR., who, despite having played an important role in the recent Minmatar victory, seem to have a wealth of overconfident pilots who forget that it is skill and knowledge that wins a fight, not boisterous posturing.

So far, students have lost approximately 2,750,000,000 ISK of materiel, and that number continues to rapidly rise. It is my hope that we can reach a point where the rate of increase slows down, to a halt if possible. We have a long road ahead of us...

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
#47 - 2013-09-10 18:43:49 UTC
These training exercises could be performed in simulation at no loss of life. Though this whole ordeal shows something...

Capsuleers seem to care more for their own betterment than that of the people they supposedly serve to protect.

-Eran
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#48 - 2013-09-10 19:06:42 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
These training exercises could be performed in simulation at no loss of life.

No, they cannot. They test preparedness and reaction time in addition to skill and knowledge. Simulations are one thing. Real life is another.

Eran Mintor wrote:
Capsuleers seem to care more for their own betterment than that of the people they supposedly serve to protect.

I don't think joining in the militia requires ascribing to any sort of dedication to protection or betterment of the respective nation's militia. It is simply a legal contract to lend your combat services to the faction in exchange for payment, with the advantage of being CONCORD-legal.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
#49 - 2013-09-10 19:08:56 UTC
So all the posturing made against Amarr and for the Minmatar is just that, posturing? You're really just in this for profit? Interesting.

-Eran
Drax Concrilla
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-09-10 19:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Drax Concrilla
Eran Mintor wrote:
So all the posturing made against Amarr and for the Minmatar is just that, posturing? You're really just in this for profit? Interesting.

-Eran


You should really look into joining the judicial branch of the militia my friend! Should we be in it "only for the money" would we not be actively in the militia ranks? Indeed, I hear that the Tribal Liberation Force pay scale has been quite generous as of late. Petrus was simply pointing out an unfortunate fact. Currently one must have only the slightest loyalty to join the militia of any of the major nations.

As for posturing, one can hardly deny that there is much posturing going on by both sides, both literal and metaphorical. The nature of such posturing however, largely falls outside the scope of this live fire exercise - though I will gladly discuss the matter with you elsewhere.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#51 - 2013-09-10 19:40:12 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
So all the posturing made against Amarr and for the Minmatar is just that, posturing? You're really just in this for profit? Interesting.

-Eran


These proxy wars are little more than posturing between the Empires in and of themselves, regardless of the motivations of any individual capsuleer involved in them. They seem to serve as little more than a diversionary tactic and moderate enticement to keep as many of us as is possible in the border zones, and away from the general affairs of our respective governments.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#52 - 2013-09-10 20:50:00 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
You're really just in this for profit?

If by "you" you mean the vast majority of capsuleers in the militias, then yes. The next largest group is only there so the policelets them shoot stuff legally. Only very few are there out of real fealty toward their nation.

We are not officially participating in the militia at this moment, since profit does not really concern us. Being officially unaffiliated in the same area and shooting both sides of the war (albeit each for different reasons) simply gets us labeled as "pirates", gets the police angry at us, et cetera. It is far better than the alternative of staying in the militia for profit, then being labeled as traitors for trying to conduct these live fire exercises.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2013-09-10 21:30:57 UTC
Ironically, as one of the few Loyalists in the Militia, Concord is bent on redefining me as a criminal because doing my duty doesn't mesh with their arbitrary legal system.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Shiki Mikkyou
#54 - 2013-09-10 22:54:32 UTC
I am not normally given to commenting within the political sphere, but as a native of Metropolis, I find this development discouraging. I was raised on-station in the company of a number of free Matari thinkers, accomplished researchers all, and grew up shoulder-to-shoulder with their children.

From the standpoint of militia machination, this exercise cannot be considered a great aberration. It is no different than a service contract, wherein the signatory bears no charge to observe the philosophical precepts espoused by the employer. The militia fleets form and aggress as they are paid to do, and the fiery death of many thousands of otherwise productive citizens need not serve the Republic's best interest.

However, from an ethnic and historical standpoint, this contradiction that we must 'sacrifice the lives of our countrymen to better save the lives of our countrymen,' bespeaks a mentality unable to recognize its own simultaneous disdain and reverence for life. How much can one value a fellow Matari when one slaughters them so casually? Is the tribal essence so threadbare that, upon aspiring to pod pilot status, it is dissolved in mere greed?

Can the practices of the Amarr be considered so reprehensible in comparison to this scenario?

I have no stake in the charade of inter-faction conflict, but I find it regrettable that, after witnessing the Republic struggle so mightily to attain an equal footing in the quadrant, some would claw their way back into the abyss one shipwreck at a time.

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain。

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Black Advent
#55 - 2013-09-11 00:06:30 UTC
I fail to see where the moral or ethical contradictions lie in serving in a militia out of a sense of duty and patriotism while also seeking to get paid. Vessels, armaments and ammunition don't grow on the proverbial trees.

Or is it more noble to go fight your enemies by throwing rocks at their tanks because the thought of shooting people in the face and then getting a paycheque for it is seen as so terrible and tragic?

I guess some need to play, "Who is the better loyalist" to themselves and to others here on the IGS, and some do not, for they understand what it means to be a freelance capsuleer, and to be in effect a corporate mercenary. I guess the cluster will always be full of those who need to play pretend in order to sleep better at night, and then there's those who know what the real rules of the games are.

For that at least, Mr. Blackshell has a degree of admiration from me, in addition to his sense of style and flair which so many appear to lack.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Rioghal Morgan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-09-11 01:43:22 UTC
Gods in heaven, there's a lot of equivocating and feeble justifications for attacking people fighting for the country you claim loyalty for in this thread. You'd be better off just admitting you've gone pirate.
Rune Ainur
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-09-11 06:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Ainur
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
Gods in heaven, there's a lot of equivocating and feeble justifications for attacking people fighting for the country you claim loyalty for in this thread. You'd be better off just admitting you've gone pirate.


He's being a smuglord about it, but I honestly can't figure out why. So far, their killboard is a yawn fest and has a lot of red.

No wonder they "left" the TLF.
Eran Mintor
Furtherance.
#58 - 2013-09-11 08:25:35 UTC
Here is a shovel.

There is a plot.

Dig.

-Eran
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#59 - 2013-09-11 09:10:18 UTC
Shiki Mikkyou wrote:
How much can one value a fellow Matari when one slaughters them so casually?

You could level this at any member of the Republic military that fires on Amarrian vessels. Ethnic minmatar serve as crew, after all.

I suspect the answer is that they care less about individual Minmatar and more about Minmatar culture or government, the tribes, or simply freedom from foreign rule. Eggs, omelettes - you know the saying.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#60 - 2013-09-11 13:55:23 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
I suspect the answer is that they care less about individual Minmatar and more about Minmatar culture or government, the tribes, or simply freedom from foreign rule. Eggs, omelettes - you know the saying.

You've got the idea. It's unfortunate that some captains won't learn unless they are faced with the hard truth that they are not good enough and will get blown up, but it is what it is.

Rioghal Morgan wrote:
You'd be better off just admitting you've gone pirate.

And pirates are motivated by... what? Greed? If that were the case, wouldn't we stay in the Minmatar militia and get paid preposterous amounts for very little and easy work?

If you're going to accuse us of something, at least choose something with more aplomb and that is not contradictory to what we have already said, like maybe calling us sociopaths or morally corrupt crazy people.

Shiki Mikkyou wrote:
However, from an ethnic and historical standpoint, this contradiction that we must 'sacrifice the lives of our countrymen to better save the lives of our countrymen,' bespeaks a mentality unable to recognize its own simultaneous disdain and reverence for life. How much can one value a fellow Matari when one slaughters them so casually?


You are probably not familiar with my views. I do not fight out of loyalty to a nation. It does not make sense to: the Republic regularly chases me out of their high security space as a consequence of my doing my duties in their militia. When I was in the militia, I fought for them since they paid me. Now, there is no debt between the Republic and me, so I simply consider myself neutral and detached.

What i do fight for is the principle of freedom through self-determination. It just so happens that this aligns with the Republic and Federation mindset, so I help them. Right now, that involves hardening the capsuleer forces in the militia. I care not if their crews are Amarrian or Matari, so long as they are there of their own choice. That distinction is the difference between captains whom I prod towards growth, and captains I destroy with prejudice.

Incidentally, if anyone gets shot down by Point Blank Alliance and wishes to go a step further toward self-improvement, they are perfectly welcome to have a post-mortem discussion with us to figure out why things went the way they did, and how to do better next time.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)