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Nighthawk - the 'constructive' thread - how Fraked it is.

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Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-09-08 09:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Right then.

The Nighthawk, clearly, despite contrary feedback, CCP Fozzie and others thought it balanced. Kindly inform me how and where this Command Ship is 'balanced' or 'fine'.

As a PvP Combat Ship:
[A] Point range kiting with HMLs
- Not fast enough
- Not Agile enough
- Anemic DPS, especially when not shooting Kinetic
- The 5th low can be used for a Nanofiber, Hooray!

[B] Scram range brawling with HAMs
- With ASBs the tank is Cyclone grade, sure, v/s Hybrid damage its far better than T1, but still relatively subpar staying power
- What would CCP envision the 5th low to be used for? Nanofiber?
- Compared to any other Command Ship, the brawl tank and buffer is inferior.

As a PvE ship:
- Cant use HAMs since there is no range bonus
- With HMLs, the DPS and Tank (on paper AND effective due to cruiser hull size/speed) is worse than a Cerberus or Tengu i.e. either side of price bracket PRE-1.1. The market realizes this and now the Cerb is selling for 10-15% higher than a Nighthawk.

Edit:
As a Boosting ship:
Whatever it can do, a Claymore does better. The ONLY exception being if you want the highest possible siege links in a fleet with shield logi support, this is the ship to do it. Thats its niche?

Fleet on-grid booster?

---
'Constructively' then, the options for CCP:

- Needs more speed, agility
- the most obvious is take the 5th low and make it a Mid i.e. Drake layout
- Alternatively, make the bonus not tied to Kinetic and give larger drone bay (but then thats not 'Caldari' flavor)
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#2 - 2013-09-08 09:55:43 UTC
I'm not big on Caldari ships, but a wicked passive shield tank + two utility highs seems like it'd have decent PVE applications.

Also not really sure I'm seeing the divide between it and the Claymore.
Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#3 - 2013-09-08 10:20:22 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
I'm not big on Caldari ships, but a wicked passive shield tank + two utility highs seems like it'd have decent PVE applications.

Also not really sure I'm seeing the divide between it and the Claymore.


Nighthawk always had a good tank, losing the sixth launcher was a big mistake though as it killed the dps. I sold mine pretty quickly as it's not much use now.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#4 - 2013-09-08 10:40:11 UTC
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I'm not big on Caldari ships, but a wicked passive shield tank + two utility highs seems like it'd have decent PVE applications.

Also not really sure I'm seeing the divide between it and the Claymore.


Nighthawk always had a good tank, losing the sixth launcher was a big mistake though as it killed the dps. I sold mine pretty quickly as it's not much use now.


Think it only lost ~2.8% DPS? The effective launchers come out virtually the same - a recurring theme across the board.
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-09-08 10:46:07 UTC
You seem to be a Nighthawk BPO owner. Not selling them fast enough?

My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.

There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2013-09-08 10:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
S Byerley wrote:
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
I'm not big on Caldari ships, but a wicked passive shield tank + two utility highs seems like it'd have decent PVE applications.

Also not really sure I'm seeing the divide between it and the Claymore.

Nighthawk always had a good tank, losing the sixth launcher was a big mistake though as it killed the dps. I sold mine pretty quickly as it's not much use now.

Think it only lost ~2.8% DPS? The effective launchers come out virtually the same - a recurring theme across the board.

It was 6 launchers, +25% kinetic damage, -25% cycle time = 10 base launchers worth of damage output.
Now, it's 5 launchers, +37.5% kinetic damage, -37.5% cycle time = 11 base launchers worth of damage output.

Without the kinetic bonus — either because you shoot the wrong missiles or because you haven't skilled up CS — it was (6/0.75=) 8 launchers before, compared to (5/0.625=) 8 now…

e: turrets are not launchers Oops
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#7 - 2013-09-08 11:02:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It was 6 turrets, +25% kinetic damage, -25% cycle time = 10 base launchers worth of damage output.
Now, it's 5 turrets, +37.5% kinetic damage, -37.5% cycle time = 11 base launchers worth of damage output.


Good call; eyeballed it too quickly.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#8 - 2013-09-08 11:11:13 UTC
Inb4 F&I
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-09-08 12:31:51 UTC
I'm just envisioning the Eos and Astarte cruising past the now-homeless Nighthawk in a brand new cadillac and flipping the bird.

Dodixie > Hek
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2013-09-08 12:33:53 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
I'm just envisioning the Eos and Astarte cruising past the now-homeless Nighthawk in a brand new cadillac and flipping the bird.

They've earned it.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-09-08 15:41:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
I'm just envisioning the Eos and Astarte cruising past the now-homeless Nighthawk in a brand new cadillac and flipping the bird.

They've earned it.

Agreed, they were the underdogs for far too long.

Dodixie > Hek
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#12 - 2013-09-08 16:11:51 UTC
What did Jonathan Frakes do to deserve this disparagement of his name ???

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#13 - 2013-09-08 17:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Berendas
ElQuirko wrote:
I'm just envisioning the Eos and Astarte cruising past the now-homeless Nighthawk in a brand new cadillac and flipping the bird.


Dude, nice jacket, stylish undershirt too.
ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#14 - 2013-09-08 19:46:35 UTC
This thread has been locked as it is duplicate topic to the Odessy 1.1 Update feedback thread.
Odessy 1.1 Command Ships Thread.
Please re-post your input there.

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department