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Crime & Punishment

 
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Global Kill Rights for 0 ISK a bit excessive?
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Sublime Rage
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-09-06 14:08:47 UTC
The scent of tears led me here !
Buzz LiteBeer
#42 - 2013-09-06 15:09:17 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:
Does no one on these forums ever say anything that takes any thought? Almost every reply so far seems that it came from a shared text document called "standard_insults.txt". Dying for attention and popularity on who the biggest troll is aren't we guys?


I'm sorry if this hurts you, but you are not worth opening "special_insults.txt" over.

Oh and the fact that you regularly pop back into the thread to tell us how pathetic our trolling is? Not helping.



Not helping what exactly? The first reply was the only one that pertained to the subject and actually had any good info. You guys are just feeding into each others circle jerk anonymous "internet cool guy" mentality.

I can sum up every reply after the first with this line:

"Actions have consequences, stop crying"

I am just raking over the community looking for a general consensus on how everyone felt about this system, while at the same time providing personal feedback, because to me it is stupid to just complain about something without making any suggestion on how to fix what you are complaining about. Those types of posts are just as empty as all the "I'm Cool Look At Me Flaming This Guy" replies.

Why not keep replying insuring you know how pathetic your replies are? It takes me 2 min to type up these meesages, which is way more time than it takes the majority of you to copy and paste a standard flame insult from your text documents, but it really isn't any skin off my back to keep the wheel turning.

The only real issue is that 99% of you won't read past the title, or probably not the first line of the actual text. Which is pretty funny because it says a lot about your character in EVE. If you can't even be bothered to read something you are going to insult then I bet you must be a follower in EVE. Since I also doubt you have the patience or aptitude to be a good pilot.

OT:

All I have gathered from this thread is that people welcome the global Kill Right system just as much as they welcome bounties and all their usefulness(before they were changed). You can either ignore it and just live in Null/Low or you can just exploit the low/no cost to activate and have a buddy kill a rookie ship, or fly a cheap ship into Amarr or something and wait for it to blow.

So yea, what a great system they put in place. I can really understand all the "Bahhhh's" from the rookie pilots that believe the system is "much improved". They took something that didn't have a loophole and gave it multiple loop holes, and the overall effect is that they are still non-threatening.

So o/ This will be my last post. Have fun with the circle jerk flaming replies, you are really cool.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#43 - 2013-09-06 16:44:05 UTC
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:
Does no one on these forums ever say anything that takes any thought? Almost every reply so far seems that it came from a shared text document called "standard_insults.txt". Dying for attention and popularity on who the biggest troll is aren't we guys?


I'm sorry if this hurts you, but you are not worth opening "special_insults.txt" over.

Oh and the fact that you regularly pop back into the thread to tell us how pathetic our trolling is? Not helping.



Not helping what exactly?


Not helping "not looking like a crybaby".
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-09-06 17:05:16 UTC
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:

I am just raking over the community looking for a general consensus on how everyone felt about this system, while at the same time providing personal feedback, because to me it is stupid to just complain about something without making any suggestion on how to fix what you are complaining about.


You seem to have missed a very important bit of how the killright system works, and why your "fix" makes no sense whatsoever, and is fundamentally flawed. The cost of killrights and the availability is determined by the guy who "owns" the killright.
If you want killrights to actually have a financial meaning to people looking to use them, then you have to convince the killright owners that the killrights are worth something more than the mail they get when someone uses it.

It all boils down to you not being informed and making a post to "fix" something that is working pretty damn well as a game mechanic.
Buzz LiteBeer
#45 - 2013-09-06 17:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz LiteBeer
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:

I am just raking over the community looking for a general consensus on how everyone felt about this system, while at the same time providing personal feedback, because to me it is stupid to just complain about something without making any suggestion on how to fix what you are complaining about.


You seem to have missed a very important bit of how the killright system works, and why your "fix" makes no sense whatsoever, and is fundamentally flawed. The cost of killrights and the availability is determined by the guy who "owns" the killright.
If you want killrights to actually have a financial meaning to people looking to use them, then you have to convince the killright owners that the killrights are worth something more than the mail they get when someone uses it.

It all boils down to you not being informed and making a post to "fix" something that is working pretty damn well as a game mechanic.


Well, like I said before, there are loopholes and ways to get out of losing anything if you want. With my proposed "fix" it would cost someone of the same alliance of the person who is the target of the kill right the same price of the pod that was killed in the first place in order to remove the KR.

All you would have to do is a bit of research and figure out what corp that "pirate" is in, from there find out where the home base for that corp is, and look and see who they have bad relations with (past war decs) and assign someone from that corp/alliance the Kill Right for a partial fee and they can kill the person for you, or you could hire someone to join your corp and kill the guy for an even smaller fee.

I can't tell anymore if you guys are saying the mechanic is good because its easily ignored/exploitable, or because you truly believe that it works the way it was intended. It feels to me that the only people who wouldn't take advantage of the easy exploit are those who welcome the KR, but probably never come into high sec to begin with, and if they do they probably steer away from Jita/Amarr or ther trade centers.

I mean, this information is painfully obvious that people either exploit it, ignore it, or welcome it and in all ways never feel threatened by it.

PS: I responded to this one, because it wasn't a flame o/
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-09-07 11:13:01 UTC
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:

I am just raking over the community looking for a general consensus on how everyone felt about this system, while at the same time providing personal feedback, because to me it is stupid to just complain about something without making any suggestion on how to fix what you are complaining about.


You seem to have missed a very important bit of how the killright system works, and why your "fix" makes no sense whatsoever, and is fundamentally flawed. The cost of killrights and the availability is determined by the guy who "owns" the killright.
If you want killrights to actually have a financial meaning to people looking to use them, then you have to convince the killright owners that the killrights are worth something more than the mail they get when someone uses it.

It all boils down to you not being informed and making a post to "fix" something that is working pretty damn well as a game mechanic.


Well, like I said before, there are loopholes and ways to get out of losing anything if you want. With my proposed "fix" it would cost someone of the same alliance of the person who is the target of the kill right the same price of the pod that was killed in the first place in order to remove the KR.

All you would have to do is a bit of research and figure out what corp that "pirate" is in, from there find out where the home base for that corp is, and look and see who they have bad relations with (past war decs) and assign someone from that corp/alliance the Kill Right for a partial fee and they can kill the person for you, or you could hire someone to join your corp and kill the guy for an even smaller fee.

I can't tell anymore if you guys are saying the mechanic is good because its easily ignored/exploitable, or because you truly believe that it works the way it was intended. It feels to me that the only people who wouldn't take advantage of the easy exploit are those who welcome the KR, but probably never come into high sec to begin with, and if they do they probably steer away from Jita/Amarr or ther trade centers.

I mean, this information is painfully obvious that people either exploit it, ignore it, or welcome it and in all ways never feel threatened by it.

PS: I responded to this one, because it wasn't a flame o/


But see, you have it all wrong, the only reason it can be sometimes ignored is if people are stupid enough to set it public at 0 isk.
And I cant see the reasoning behind the statement that it is "exploitable", you will really have to explain this in detail.

Im sorry, but your proposed change just makes it alot more complicated than it needs to be. Also do keep in mind that killrights are sold to people at set prices according to what the target might be flying. Your change would not only complicate things, but it would also break the "economy" that the new killrights have created.
Literally Space Moses
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-09-07 13:42:58 UTC
I haven't read the thread, but here's the reason it's a Bad Idea (TM). Certain people make a living out of ganking expensive stuff (jump freighters, expensive mission ships, etc). Changing kill rights to be a flat % of the kill value would effectively remove some of the punishment for their crimes. If they have a kill right, but it cost a billion isk, who in their right mind would pay that? By only ganking expensive ships, you could effectively dodge pretty much any killrights.

#T2013
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#48 - 2013-09-07 18:49:19 UTC
Wow, you are quite entertaining OP.

You admit that you took a break, then went out PVPing without catching up on the patch notes first. Then you insult others for "not reading" your post and call them "rookie pilots". Do you even realize how hypocritical this makes you look?

Then you say, "So o/ This will be my last post." and post again, with a "PS" excuse for why you can't even keep to a simple (and wise) promise to finally STFU and stop making yourself look bad.

Your half-baked "fix" to a system most people are satisfied with (those who read about how it works that is) does not negate the fact that you lost a ship because you can't be arsed to read up on changes after a long hiatus, then came to the forums, whined about it, got trolled, got mad, and now got egg all over your face.

Oh well. Nothing new here.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Buzz LiteBeer
#49 - 2013-09-07 19:34:44 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Wow, you are quite entertaining OP.

You admit that you took a break, then went out PVPing without catching up on the patch notes first. Then you insult others for "not reading" your post and call them "rookie pilots". Do you even realize how hypocritical this makes you look?

Then you say, "So o/ This will be my last post." and post again, with a "PS" excuse for why you can't even keep to a simple (and wise) promise to finally STFU and stop making yourself look bad.

Your half-baked "fix" to a system most people are satisfied with (those who read about how it works that is) does not negate the fact that you lost a ship because you can't be arsed to read up on changes after a long hiatus, then came to the forums, whined about it, got trolled, got mad, and now got egg all over your face.

Oh well. Nothing new here.


Another illiterate moron spreading libel... Nothing new here.
Buzz LiteBeer
#50 - 2013-09-07 19:36:46 UTC
Literally Space Moses wrote:
I haven't read the thread, but here's the reason it's a Bad Idea (TM). Certain people make a living out of ganking expensive stuff (jump freighters, expensive mission ships, etc). Changing kill rights to be a flat % of the kill value would effectively remove some of the punishment for their crimes. If they have a kill right, but it cost a billion isk, who in their right mind would pay that? By only ganking expensive ships, you could effectively dodge pretty much any killrights.


People dodge the system regardless... Since it has been mentioned multiple times that people not only ignore the global kill right, but often exploit it by having a corp mate blow up a rookie ship belonging to the the person with the active kill right.
Buzz LiteBeer
#51 - 2013-09-07 19:42:53 UTC
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:


But see, you have it all wrong, the only reason it can be sometimes ignored is if people are stupid enough to set it public at 0 isk.
And I cant see the reasoning behind the statement that it is "exploitable", you will really have to explain this in detail.

Im sorry, but your proposed change just makes it alot more complicated than it needs to be. Also do keep in mind that killrights are sold to people at set prices according to what the target might be flying. Your change would not only complicate things, but it would also break the "economy" that the new killrights have created.



The reason people set it to 0 isk is so more people would be influenced to kill the person. It's a double edged sword. You can set it to anything above 0 isk and you start decreasing the numbers of people who are going to be willing to activate it. It's exploitable any time it isn't worth people losing isk over it. You could set it to one million isk to activate it and I could still pay a corp mate to do it and not lose anything of value (ship wise). You set it to anything below 50m isk and I might think of not activating myself, but then again most people going around activating KR's are also going to start second guessing whether it be worth the isk or not.

So it is either completely exploitable because it is set too cheap, or ignorable because it is set too high. The only time I would start to worry is if it was set to 100m isk and I was traveling around in a BS, but because I am not an idiot I would rather just hide for 30 days and fly around in T1 BC's or cheaper T1/T2 figs/cruisers in high sec and wait for the KR to fall off the board and only fly my expensive ships with fleets in low/null sec space.

So again, it is either completely avoidable/ignored or exploited just like how bounties used to be.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-09-08 08:42:44 UTC
Hey ... psssst ... just STFU already ...


You are not understanding the system put in place .. your misunderstanding makes you want to fix it .. the only thing needing a fix is you. Now be gone.
Buzz LiteBeer
#53 - 2013-09-08 13:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz LiteBeer
Ressiv wrote:
Hey ... psssst ... just STFU already ...


You are not understanding the system put in place .. your misunderstanding makes you want to fix it .. the only thing needing a fix is you. Now be gone.


What am I misunderstanding? You take a kill right, you give it a cost, and you make it acceptable by a person, corp, or global. It's really that simple.

This is where I read up about it. Please tell me what is missing from this that I don't understand. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kill_rights
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-09-08 14:50:26 UTC
You started this topic complaining that killrights should be made more expensive to people not related to the kill in any way because it is not fair if all of EVE can shoot you or something to that extend. Atm you say that a 0 cost killright is useless.

So yeah, go play EVE, experience the new system, learn why different people like/hate it, then when you understand all that, try again...
Buzz LiteBeer
#55 - 2013-09-08 15:36:54 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
You started this topic complaining that killrights should be made more expensive to people not related to the kill in any way because it is not fair if all of EVE can shoot you or something to that extend. Atm you say that a 0 cost killright is useless.

So yeah, go play EVE, experience the new system, learn why different people like/hate it, then when you understand all that, try again...





I didn't say it wasn't fair, I have said it was excessive and easily exploitable from the start. The first reply is something I had already known about it. I also mentioned that my lose of ship and pod was nobodies fault but my own and that it was my ignorance of the new system that caused the loss. So you might be referring to a different thread than I am, but it seems pretty clear to me.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-09-08 16:18:20 UTC
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:

I didn't say it wasn't fair, I have said it was excessive and easily exploitable from the start. The first reply is something I had already known about it. I also mentioned that my lose of ship and pod was nobodies fault but my own and that it was my ignorance of the new system that caused the loss. So you might be referring to a different thread than I am, but it seems pretty clear to me.

...then 3 pages of replies follow letting you know there is nothing wrong, except your mindset, yet you remain convinced that we are living in a special place with special rules for special people where if you just scream loud enough your argument might gradualy improve each itteration.

Killrights are working like intended, which was never to counter ganking alts. If the person making a killright public did his homework (what is it about EVE and reading up on **** .... Roll) he knows what kinda ships the person flies .. he then puts a price on the KR that somewhat matches expected module drop .... rest of EVE has a use for their locator agent snd that scanning ship.

It's not perfect ... but your solution is not any better.
Buzz LiteBeer
#57 - 2013-09-08 16:46:49 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
[quote=Buzz LiteBeer]

If the person making a killright public did his homework (what is it about EVE and reading up on **** .... Roll) he knows what kinda ships the person flies .. he then puts a price on the KR that somewhat matches expected module drop .... rest of EVE has a use for their locator agent snd that scanning ship.


If that was how people used the system then yes, it would work fine. But it isn't is it? Pilots generally won't go through the hassle of following and who and what the other pilot flies before they set the KR price. Even if they did do that and projected that the person might drop 5-10m in modules then that right there would turn off some people from even engaging, or better yet, like I have said multiple times, it would be such a low price that people would just exploit it with corp mates. If the value is set too high then it will just be ignored by the majority of the population.

So the system in place isn't just "not perfect", it is completely flawed and is literally the same thing that bounties used to be before they were changed.

Bounties worked like this before:

Pilot puts X bounty on other pilot, then pilot with bounty has corp mate destroy his rookie ship and collect bounty. They then share the bounty with each other.

Pilot makes Kill Right global for X amount of isk, pilot with activated KR has corp mate kill his rookie ship and pays him back the KR activation cost.

If the bounty was set too low then it was ignored (like a couple of 100k isk). If the KR price is set too high, it is ignored (like a couple of 100m isk).

It boggles my mind that they would change the bounty system, but then introduce another system that is just as exploitable as the other.

Now the bounty system has a fixed payout depending on the ship/modules lost after the ship is destroyed. All I am saying is put a fixed price on activating the KR depending on the ship/modules destroyed that gave the KR. Seems pretty ideal to me. My projected numbers may not be perfect, and that is what I was trying to discuss, but instead all I get is flame by people who don't understand that the system if completely flawed as it is, or they love the systems flaws and would rather not have them changed to something actually worth a damn because then it would be less likely for them to exploit it.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#58 - 2013-09-08 17:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Here's the thing man...

We already know how the new KR system works, because we read it in the patch notes, and experimented with it, and thought about it quite some time ago. Yes, we get that this is all news to you, and that you are dissatisfied, and *rabble rabble*....

No point you have raised in your thread is new. Gauging how much to price a global KR is a strategic decision. And yeah...CCP left it so people can derp that decision based on faulty reasoning, or failure to consider all of the options available to their opponent.

You're also arguing that the current KR system is broken while at the same time raging about how effective it was on you. While a 0 ISK global KR is easily dodged, your thread is proof that it still works as the KR-placer intended at least once in a while.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#59 - 2013-09-08 18:16:53 UTC
Buzz LiteBeer wrote:

Now the bounty system has a fixed payout depending on the ship/modules lost after the ship is destroyed. All I am saying is put a fixed price on activating the KR depending on the ship/modules destroyed that gave the KR. Seems pretty ideal to me. My projected numbers may not be perfect, and that is what I was trying to discuss, but instead all I get is flame by people who don't understand that the system if completely flawed as it is, or they love the systems flaws and would rather not have them changed to something actually worth a damn because then it would be less likely for them to exploit it.


What exactly is the advantage of a fixed value over a value chosen by the victim? If your idea is so great, than people already have the option to put the killright up for exactly the amount you suggest. People chosing a different amount may or may not make a mistake, but that's not really a reason to remove the choice; if you want to remove all possibilities for mistakes from EvE, not much will be left.

I get the impression you're still missing something in the mechanics. You are aware that when a killright is activated, the victim receives the money payed by the activating party, yes? So if a cheap killright is activated and used up using a rookie ship, the pirate might not have suffered a heavy loss, but at least he (his alt, his mate) had to pay something to the original victim. A zero ISK killright is still pointless, however a 10million killright that gets activated is still better than a 1 billion isk killright no one will ever touch.
Buzz LiteBeer
#60 - 2013-09-08 18:35:03 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:


I get the impression you're still missing something in the mechanics. You are aware that when a killright is activated, the victim receives the money payed by the activating party, yes? So if a cheap killright is activated and used up using a rookie ship, the pirate might not have suffered a heavy loss, but at least he (his alt, his mate) had to pay something to the original victim. A zero ISK killright is still pointless, however a 10million killright that gets activated is still better than a 1 billion isk killright no one will ever touch.


Yes, I get that the victim gets reimbursed for the price of the KR. Though you are looking at it still as some type of benefit to the victim where I look at it like this...

The victim puts the KR global for 50m. Now the pirate can decide whether to fly in ships that are worth less than 50m or pay a corp mate 50m and be free from the 30 day hindrance on what ships he can fly in sections of space that could be a threat to him. So yes, the pirate indirectly pays the victim for his loss to get out having a global kill right, but at the same time he isn't losing a ship/pod that could of potentially cost much more.

Although if he chooses to only fly cheap ships and use a clone without any implants then whoever activates the KR is going to be at the loss and the pirate will just sit back and laugh at the person who activated it and expected something for his money. Now in this scenario the victim is happy, the pirate is satisfied, and the KR activator took the short end of the stick.

So like said before, in no realistic scenario is anyone who is aware of the system going to suffer from it or benefit. No victim is going to make a KR worth exactly how much he lost unless it is something very reasonable and the more reasonable the price gets the more choices there are for the pirate to ignore it or just pay the victim the small percentage of his loss to clear his name.

I mean if I can figure all of this out and I have only known about the system for a little over a week now, then I can't imagine how others have figured out how to get around it.