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EVE Central is now dead?

First post
Author
Admiral MastaKilla AlphaU
Itrek Innovations
#21 - 2013-09-04 22:49:00 UTC
I would happily give back this entire patch for my spreadsheets to work again #&$(&(#$$. X
CirroWing
Athanah Industries
#22 - 2013-09-04 23:16:56 UTC
CCP pls halp.

But seriously, the guys at EMDR are doing incredible stuff, it's a shame there's no support for easily accessable marketdata from CCP's end.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#23 - 2013-09-05 00:43:18 UTC
*something something outdated code being updated*
*something something some apps using Eve-Central are running fine*
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2013-09-05 01:01:10 UTC
Wonder what happened to break it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#25 - 2013-09-05 01:07:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…or maybe EVEMon is a crashy mess right now, and they haven't updated their own data scraping software to match the new format?

It's been working fine for me - from yesterday's update.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#26 - 2013-09-05 09:29:24 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Wonder what happened to break it.



They changed the layout of the data in the cache. From what I've heard, it's mostly reorganising things like the namespace.

Pita to fix the cache scrapers, but not hellish difficult.

I've got a post up asking CCP for a crest based api, but it's a game design issue, rather than a technical one.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#27 - 2013-09-05 10:33:35 UTC
After hauling a lot of ships and stuff from a POS in w-space (where they were in POS hangars and thus technically not in my possession) to a station in empire yesterday, I updated my jEveassets to see a nice high number on my 'total assets worth'. Instead it dropped to like 1 billion Ugh I guess now I know why... Lol

.

CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2013-09-05 11:24:55 UTC
Sable Blitzmann wrote:


But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.

You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce.

In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional.

If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption.

That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.

Just a random dude in Team Security.

Mashie Saldana
I'm Sorry Shoot What?
WE FORM V0LTA
#29 - 2013-09-05 11:27:02 UTC
Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways.
kais58
Origin.
#30 - 2013-09-05 11:36:11 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
Sable Blitzmann wrote:


But again, I stand by my statement that they are within their right to modify the cache without putting it in the patch notes, especially if something came up that required it to be modified to ensure stability (with new items / features / what have you). Since the cache is not an official third party data source, us developers can't expect them to tell us jack squat about changes.

You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for. But as we've stated, it's not something we'll enforce.

In this specific case, the fact that cache scrapers broke is a side-effect of a very major engineering change in the EVE code base that's been in the works for a while. I won't get into the specifics other than the fact from our perspective it's great and wonderful. It's a shame it broke some cache scrapers though, as that was not intentional.

If we decide to make away with the cache, then we'll make sure not to create a huge void in it's place. We had this discussion at Fanfest, and I've had this discussion both with other CCPers and with the CSM lately as to how to remove the cache without causing major disruption.

That's not to promise that anything is going to happen. As a security guy, I can't make promises. But I know there's a desire for the cache to be removed, as it's actually decreasing performance rather than increasing it.



Thanks for this Stillman, we've got it mostly sorted now, a couple of the scraping libraries have been fixed and we're just waiting on the EveMon dev to accept the patch that was submitted to him then all should be back to normal. :)
And I agree, unifying everything under your fancy carbon framework can only be a good thing ;)
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-09-05 11:56:06 UTC
Wouldn't CREST access to market (at least to read) enable market scraping just like cache, only more precise :)
CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2013-09-05 12:12:34 UTC
Psihius wrote:
Wouldn't CREST access to market (at least to read) enable market scraping just like cache, only more precise :)

Certainly that's the logical conclusion. But if/when that would happen, I do not know. That's something I'd suggest you make the CSM push for. I'm pretty sure they'd agree with you.

Just a random dude in Team Security.

Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-09-05 12:20:44 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for.

Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files).
Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.

Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')...
Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not.
Uila Tsi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-09-05 12:21:20 UTC
Tseehn Marhn wrote:


Would you mind telling how you use it? I set my includeMethodsFilter to "GetOrders", which seems to return the correct cache files, but searching through all the parsed data in those files I don't find all the orders. In particular, the 'lret' dictionary key no longer exists, which used to contain all the rows. It seems either the parser is not parsing correctly (and thus not returning all the orders), or not all the cache files are being found.


I read from the .structure file that is created and from there you can see where buy/sell orders begin/end and check that you have order you want based on the rest of the data thats in the file.
Uila Tsi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-09-05 12:24:57 UTC
Bill Saisima wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for.

Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files).
Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.

Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')...
Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not.



It has already been posted in this thread. There was a long discussion about this topic https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2899276#post2899276
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2013-09-05 12:28:52 UTC
Bill Saisima wrote:
Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there.


So you don't feel that EULA §9c: (You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so.) applies… why?
CCP Stillman
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2013-09-05 12:31:24 UTC
Bill Saisima wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for.

Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files).
Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet..

Lets start by looking at the EULA for a quick second
Quote:
You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.


Seems pretty clear-cut to me. And our lawyers, this being a legal document, agrees that cache scraping is covered by this. That's not the intent, but it's what it says. We've gone over this topic in depth already, so I'm not going to engage in another discussion about this. It is what it is. We won't enforce it as far as cache scraping goes.

Just a random dude in Team Security.

Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#38 - 2013-09-05 12:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Daisai
Bill Saisima wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:
You're right, technically cache scraping is not currently something the EULA allows for.

Maybe our english vocabularies differ a great deal, I never found anything restricting reading game files. Just re-read it and it's just not there. Reading game files is required to play and it's not your business what I do on my PC outside of eve process space as long as I respect the terms (which don't prohibit reading of files).
Maybe you are talking about a version that is not even published yet.

Regardless of current stance on consequences or not I don't like sneaky comments we can't even verify ('there is a god because I say so')...
Not that I have much respect for people that design these eulas in tthe first place, it states we're allowed to pay but ccp might not give anything for our money, of course no reimbursment either. It would be funny if ccp's ISP would say the same, you pay us and we either give you internet or not.



Its just like Icelandic banks, you give them money and they give you a 6% intrest, or they won't.

I know... Icesave jokes are so 2008...
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#39 - 2013-09-05 12:33:49 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways.


Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans.
Uila Tsi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-09-05 12:35:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Just remove the concepts of market regions in EVE and make it all flat just like contracts. It is after all what all the cache scraping apps are doing anyways.


Or remove the cache, ban accounts that try digging into the EVE Online process memory, and put a five second delay timer on the "Export" button in market details. Level out the playing field between the market bots and the humans.


I dont know about you but I can hit the market export button much faster than once every 5 seconds.