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Bestower outhauls Itty V? are you kidding?

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Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-09-04 03:21:14 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
...
My apologies, it appears I am mistaken. I could of sworn it was the other way around.


No apology should be required - you *asked* if something had changed. Yes there was a change - down grading requirements. Now the ship is being adjusted and max capacity is being reduced (not a lot but it *MAY* harm some types of "excessive load" hauling.)

Mr Kidd wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
The Iteron mark V has not lost one square metre of cargo space. How is this a screwover? You can carry just as much as you've always been able to. Why should you get compensation?


Not true. But then again, the difference isn't enough to complain about, IMO.

The OP's complaint is, however, valid in that it's a symptom of a larger problem. That problem is CCP's shell game of ship stat and skill requirement changes in the guise of an "expansion".


I don't agree with you often but I do on this point.

EVE, for years on end, held value for what you flew. Having a rigged Tristan from 2004 - it was still a rigged tristan in 2010 - a ship fit the way you'd done it and your skills were still as viable and useful flying it as they were in 2004 (just "large" rigs on a frigate hull when they added different rig sizes).

With changes, that hull no longer fits the same weapons and such. Many changes to ships have reduced or flat out made dunsel skills to fit & fly ships and this goes across the spectrum from smallest to the largest.

Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#22 - 2013-09-04 03:49:08 UTC
Destroyers, carriers, supercarriers, cruisers and other ships have over the years all had slots rearranged. This is not a new thing. Rebalancing is not a "shell game" it is aimed at encouraging diversity in ships flown in combat and the fittings used on those ships.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2013-09-04 03:51:10 UTC
Quote:
EVE, for years on end, held value for what you flew. Having a rigged Tristan from 2004 - it was still a rigged tristan in 2010 - a ship fit the way you'd done it and your skills were still as viable and useful flying it as they were in 2004 (just "large" rigs on a frigate hull when they added different rig sizes).

With changes, that hull no longer fits the same weapons and such. Many changes to ships have reduced or flat out made dunsel skills to fit & fly ships and this goes across the spectrum from smallest to the largest.


Stuff changed over the course of 6 years, who'd have thunk it?

"My Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros isn't the best weapon in the game anymore?! WTF Blizz!!"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-09-04 03:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.
Oggat
The Adam's Family
#25 - 2013-09-04 04:01:44 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.


You used to need Smartbomb to 5 to use a doomsday,
You used to need Battleship to 5 to fly a Carrier or Dread
You used to need racial Industrial 5 to fly a freighter

And you guys picked now to uprise?

Serious?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2013-09-04 04:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Desimus Maximus wrote:
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.


Utterly dishonest statement.

"The same return on investment" is that the same ship, the Itty V, has the same cargo capacity, and is just as easy to get into now as it has been for several months.

Same timeframe, same return.

But now something else is slightly better. Before, it was far and away the verybestuberawesome hauler. Now, there is actually a reason to use any other racial hauler.

If you see something wrong with that, then I can't help you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-09-04 04:07:03 UTC
Mocam wrote:
[quote=Fredfredbug4] ...


Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.


This is the WoW model. They mix it up with the intention of effectively forcing you to extend your subscription just to stay on par. They make a change and suddenly your gear and/or class drop in item level and effectiveness. Is EvE becoming World of Warcraft?

I'm aware nobody is forcing me to do anything. So please, stop with the technical stupidity.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-09-04 04:10:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.


Utterly dishonest statement.

"The same return on investment" is that the same ship, the Itty V, has the same cargo capacity, and is just as easy to get into now as it has been for several months.

Same timeframe, same return.

But now something else is slightly better. Before, it was far and away the verybestuberawesome hauler. Now, there is actually a reason to use any other racial hauler.

If you see something wrong with that, then I can't help you.


Getting into the ship is not the point. It's maximizing the effectiveness, this is what most noobs don't understand. Tell me the difference in cargo space between Amarr Industrial I and V. I think you might want to rethink a few things.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2013-09-04 04:13:22 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Mocam wrote:
[quote=Fredfredbug4] ...


Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.


This is the WoW model. They mix it up with the intention of effectively forcing you to extend your subscription just to stay on par. They make a change and suddenly your gear and/or class drop in item level and effectiveness. Is EvE becoming World of Warcraft?

I'm aware nobody is forcing me to do anything. So please, stop with the technical stupidity.


So, it's a giant scheme to make you keep paying your sub (which, presumably you are doing anyway) because some part of you throws a pouty fit if you don't have the very best #1 performance T1 hauler in the game?

Or is it, you know, they finally realized it was utterly absurd to have only one decently good hauler in the game (and eff you if you chose a race besides Gallente), and decided to do some game balance, which is literally what we pay them for?

Which of these seems like the more logical possibility to you? Take off the tinfoil hat and undies before you think about it, please.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-09-04 04:13:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.


Utterly dishonest statement.

"The same return on investment" is that the same ship, the Itty V, has the same cargo capacity, and is just as easy to get into now as it has been for several months.

Same timeframe, same return.

But now something else is slightly better. Before, it was far and away the verybestuberawesome hauler. Now, there is actually a reason to use any other racial hauler.

If you see something wrong with that, then I can't help you.


Here is what we call information. You find it by doing what is called research.

From the Patch Notes:

BESTOWER: Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4800 / 39201m3.

ITERON V: Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5800(-200) / 37152m3
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#31 - 2013-09-04 04:13:52 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
For those who have played EvE for less than 3 months. Yes, it is a fact, the Iteron V required Gallente industrial V. From beginning to end, this was damn well near a full month of skilling. This ensured that you would be flying the highest capacity sub-cap industrial in the game. Now, to get that same return on investment, to fly the highest capacity in game you will have to skill for Amarr Industrial V. That entire month of skilling for a purpose has been literally erased. CCP has effectively taken my 30 days of game time I invested in for a specific purpose and they have said, "Hey, **** you, we're taking this away from you."

If you can't see anything wrong with that then I can't help you.



While your argument may have merits, it's a pointless one because the skill requirement changed with the release of the initial Odyssey patch. I'm sorry that you've just now had a rude shock, but griping about it now will change nothing. I suggest finding a punching bag.


> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-09-04 04:15:29 UTC
Changes happened in a MMO.

News at 11.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-04 04:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Mocam wrote:
[quote=Fredfredbug4] ...


Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.


This is the WoW model. They mix it up with the intention of effectively forcing you to extend your subscription just to stay on par. They make a change and suddenly your gear and/or class drop in item level and effectiveness. Is EvE becoming World of Warcraft?

I'm aware nobody is forcing me to do anything. So please, stop with the technical stupidity.


So, it's a giant scheme to make you keep paying your sub (which, presumably you are doing anyway) because some part of you throws a pouty fit if you don't have the very best #1 performance T1 hauler in the game?

Or is it, you know, they finally realized it was utterly absurd to have only one decently good hauler in the game (and eff you if you chose a race besides Gallente), and decided to do some game balance, which is literally what we pay them for?

Which of these seems like the more logical possibility to you? Take off the tinfoil hat and undies before you think about it, please.


LOL. Now everyone will just go for the Bestower and STILL ignore the rest. Nobody is going to invest in 5 different haulers for 5 different item types. This was a ridiculous idea. The Bestower has just become the new Itty V. It's the only hauler anyone will care to fly.

And yes, I will ***** about having that badge of honor taken away. I 'earned' it by doing what was required.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-09-04 04:22:01 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Mocam wrote:
[quote=Fredfredbug4] ...


Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.


This is the WoW model. They mix it up with the intention of effectively forcing you to extend your subscription just to stay on par. They make a change and suddenly your gear and/or class drop in item level and effectiveness. Is EvE becoming World of Warcraft?

I'm aware nobody is forcing me to do anything. So please, stop with the technical stupidity.


So, it's a giant scheme to make you keep paying your sub (which, presumably you are doing anyway) because some part of you throws a pouty fit if you don't have the very best #1 performance T1 hauler in the game?

Or is it, you know, they finally realized it was utterly absurd to have only one decently good hauler in the game (and eff you if you chose a race besides Gallente), and decided to do some game balance, which is literally what we pay them for?

Which of these seems like the more logical possibility to you? Take off the tinfoil hat and undies before you think about it, please.


LOL. Now everyone will just go for the Bestower and STILL ignore the rest. Nobody is going to invest in 5 different haulers for 5 different item types. This was a ridiculous idea. The Bestower has just become the new Itty V. It's the only hauler anyone will care to fly.

And yes, I will ***** about having that badge of honor taken away. I 'earned' it by doing what was required.


Gallente industrial gets you access to haulers that can hold twice as much as a Bestower without the drawbacks of cargo expanders. Amarr Industrial gets you access to 6% more general cargo. Gallente Industrial is still way better than the others.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2013-09-04 04:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Here is what we call information. You find it by doing what is called research.

From the Patch Notes:

BESTOWER: Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4800 / 39201m3.

ITERON V: Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5800(-200) / 37152m3



I already knew this. You find this out by actually looking at the Features and Ideas forums. Especially seeing that those changes have been set in stone for about a month now (which is mostly why I find your sudden outrage so amusing, btw. You are beyond ignorant), and they've not only taken input in that thread, but actually worked on them based on that input.

Oh, and the actual difference between the two at max skills, is less than 6%. You find that out, with a little thing called math.

If >6% gets a bee in your bonnet, I can't wait til you see the Medium Weapons changes.

Quote:
LOL. Now everyone will just go for the Bestower and STILL ignore the rest. Nobody is going to invest in 5 different haulers for 5 different item types. This was a ridiculous idea. The Bestower has just become the new Itty V. It's the only hauler anyone will care to fly.


False. Being able to carry specifics that are better efficiency than a non-itemized cargo hauler will actually create competition, by giving people a legit reason to fly something besides the FoTM. That's what those bays are for.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ethereal Night
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#36 - 2013-09-04 04:24:23 UTC
Anyone else look forward to the QQ threads after every expansion? I always have. They always seem to be the most entertaining to read. I was waiting for this one in particular to show up. Thank you for not dissapointing.

Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool, or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant: "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#37 - 2013-09-04 04:24:40 UTC
Quote:
And yes, I will ***** about having that badge of honor taken away. I 'earned' it by doing what was required.


No, you didn't. What you earned was the right to fly the Iteron V. Which, unless you got podded and lost some skillpoints recently, is a right you still have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-09-04 04:28:16 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Mocam wrote:
[quote=Fredfredbug4] ...


Change may be good in many ways but there are dangers of ending up with the old "chase the carrot" gear-chase of other games creeping in as they flip-flop and toggle things around. It is something to watch out for - especially coupled with the "nef -> buff -> nerf" mix tossed on the stack.


This is the WoW model. They mix it up with the intention of effectively forcing you to extend your subscription just to stay on par. They make a change and suddenly your gear and/or class drop in item level and effectiveness. Is EvE becoming World of Warcraft?

I'm aware nobody is forcing me to do anything. So please, stop with the technical stupidity.


There are a f... err.. lot of games out there beyond that one and some quite a bit older that used parts of this.

You have imbalances between areas and adjust them to keep things changing enough so it looks like it's avoiding stagnation - adjust these specs a little, those a little, etc.

EVE did a really narrow set of adjustments on this for the first couple years or so of game play that I dealt with - 2009 up a bit. Recently it's been accelerating the changes faster. Less introduction of new things (they are there) but a lot of shuffling around.

THis style of design shift is fairly common across MMO's to one degree or another. It's more noticeable in some than others is all but it does exist across them. EVE held in the past a high value for what you did train and retention of value for what you had - I've used this as an argument for how "casual time friendly" EVE's design is.

What I said there is it's something to watch out for - a design mode shift. This isn't any different than some of the warnings that came out before we got a NeX store and all the crap that came up with.

If this "tiericide" announcement "trends" development - then you're looking at a potential shift that will devaluate more than the occasional issues we see.

These changes were announced and have been followed through on -- adjusting things to get rid of tiers -- and it will take a while but that doesn't mean it won't be extended indefinitely as a design philosophy if it's seen as a successful due to acceptance - meaning value retention of training won't hold that value long term anymore.

This is what I"m pointing at. The little losses here or there from tieracide aren't that big a deal. I'm ity 5 from old... up through a naggy with capital missiles trained for it too... Changes happen and you adapt but it should depend on "for how long" vs tolerating indefinitely.

It's a wait and see gig but one side of it to keep an eye on.
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#39 - 2013-09-04 04:45:35 UTC
I trained for the FotM once, so I'm entitled to have the best stats forever.
NOTHING should ever be able to replace it, or I'm gonna rage.

Who put the goat in there?
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#40 - 2013-09-04 04:46:26 UTC
Y'all are just a bunch of dumb poopyheads and DON'T UNDERSTAND!!! Desimus Maximus trained for the best. He deserves to have the best. And to be the best. No other ship can be better than the one that he trained for. Ever. You HAVE to make his ship the best because he spent his time and effort training it. NOBODY else has ever been affected by a change in this way. EVER. Why is Desimus being PERSECUTED?!!!

This thread is now a petition in support of Desimus. Please post to show your support.
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