These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sensitive document relating to the assault on Caldari Prime goes missing

Author
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-09-04 02:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That wasn't their primary objective though, was it? I thought getting the Shiigeru out of Luminaire was?


It kinda depends on who you ask. We don't even know for sure what the true objective was, we might find out soon if those documents are leaked though.

Judging from the fact that the Gallente Navy achieved orbital supremacy, which would allow for a full scale invasion of the planet if need be, the Federation could of easily seized your home if they wanted to. However because that never occurred, it's safe to say that the primary goal was simply to remove the Shiigeru fleet.

Seizing the planet could of been a secondary objective, though considering how the Senate allowed the CEP to negotiate the future of a neutral Caldari Prime when they could of easily claimed the planet again demonstrates that conquest was not on our agenda.

So to sum things up. The primary objective was to remove the Shiigeru fleet from Luminaire, and the secondary objective was to support Gallente insurrections fighting against the Provist.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2013-09-04 02:46:22 UTC
Uhm. That's the second time you've made this mistake, but I'll poke you for it now Fred. The attack on Shiigeru was massively phyrric as victories go. Also they didn't decide NOT to invade, they invaded and were bloodily repulsed.

Stop acting like the Federation stopped short of stealing Home AGAIN out of the kindness of their heart - I have no doubt that the incredibly high price paid and the price remaining to be paid was the reason they were amenable to diplomatic negotiation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-09-04 03:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Uhm. That's the second time you've made this mistake, but I'll poke you for it now Fred. The attack on Shiigeru was massively phyrric as victories go. Also they didn't decide NOT to invade, they invaded and were bloodily repulsed.

Stop acting like the Federation stopped short of stealing Home AGAIN out of the kindness of their heart - I have no doubt that the incredibly high price paid and the price remaining to be paid was the reason they were amenable to diplomatic negotiation.


Yes it was a phyrric victory. Practically a draw considering that only one Federation dreadnought was left standing, and badly damaged at that. However it was still a victory, the field belonged to us. If it was truly the our goal to retake the planet, wouldn't we have sent reinforcements to secure our extremely loose grip on the space above the planet? We easily could as well, especially considering that as far as CONCORD was concerned, Luminaire was a Federation system making it perfectly legal for us to reinforce it. If the Caldari were to try to counter attack they would have to invade Luminaire once more, and in turn breach CONCORD mandates.

The troops sent in were not an invasion force. The boots we put on the ground were DUST clones to put down the remaining Provist forces. Unfortunately, the Provist had DUST clones as well. Thankfully, both sides did not want to draw out the conflict any longer. However, if the Provist were willing to fight to the death or our goal was truly to seize the planet then you would see regular infantry coming in as well as more ships to reinforce the system. Which again, could easily be done now that the Caldari had no ships in the system and no way of sending more in. We could of layed siege to the planet...again...if we had to. However, considering there are far more Gallenteans living on Caldari Prime now than over 100 years ago, a full proper invasion would of been the best bet if need be.

However as high up as my connections in the Navy go, I don't know the true nature of Operation Highlander and all of this is pure speculation based on the information we have at hand. Maybe if the documents are leaked we can confirm the nature of the mission.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2013-09-04 03:36:26 UTC
It would have led to nothing more than two centuries of warfare and our eventual return. AGAIN.

Please tell me you haven't learned NOTHING from recent history?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-09-04 03:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It would have led to nothing more than two centuries of warfare and our eventual return. AGAIN.

Please tell me you haven't learned NOTHING from recent history?


You're changing the topic Mr. Tuulinen. All I'm saying is that if our goal was truly to conquer Caldari Prime, we would of been able to accomplish it as soon as the Shiigeru went down. You are correct, if we did try to conquer it then history would repeat itself. However we didn't when we could have, and unless the State did something similar to what Shakor's Elder fleet did, seizing the planet would of been a struggle, but completely within the realm of possibility.

Heth was using the Shiigeru to hold us hostage. One move against him, and Gallente Prime falls and possibly even other systems. Our goal was to get rid of the Shiigeru. Please do try forgive the expression, but Caldari Prime was collateral damage.

But again, we didn't steal your home from you once more, and we didn't even plan on doing it. Unless there is evidence that proves otherwise that's the conclusion we have to draw.

Caldari Prime is in a state that both our nations find satisfactory. Neutral and demilitarized with both Gallente and Caldari coexisting on the planet, perhaps unwillingly, but at the very least, peacefully. Neither the Federation nor the State would have anything to gain by starting up the fighting again.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2013-09-04 04:13:14 UTC
There we are in agreement, obviously. The current solution is, in point of fact, the closest to a resolution that is acceptable to both sides that I can imagine.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-09-04 05:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That wasn't their primary objective though, was it? I thought getting the Shiigeru out of Luminaire was?


It was their primary objective now, if you get my meaning.

All those troops landed on the planet? All those "resistance fighters" and weapons smuggled in? All those campaign promises?

Yeah, those were to get the Shiigeru out of orbit. Totally. Why else? We totally had no objectives otherwise, really. Even if we said so. Big bluff. Yup.

A week of fighting on the planet? Yeah, that was...uh, because we didn't want to reinforce things. Didn't want to use our firepower to, you know, win. Ignore those news reports. They have nothing to do with the things. Uh, gotta go.

...The report should be interesting.
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-09-04 08:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Suorsa
I'm inclined to agree with Vikarion-haan. The Shiigeru was a convenient excuse.

I also look forward to the leaking of the stolen documents, for I must have been one of very few people openly dissatisfied with the current status quo regarding home.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#49 - 2013-09-04 08:26:47 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

It kinda depends on who you ask. We don't even know for sure what the true objective was, we might find out soon if those documents are leaked though.


...

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
So to sum things up. The primary objective was to remove the Shiigeru fleet from Luminaire, and the secondary objective was to support Gallente insurrections fighting against the Provist.


Clearly, Fred has received these documents as he didn't know the answer himself when he started talking, but chanced upon the answers by the time he finished.

...

-Eran
Vikarion
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-09-04 10:05:40 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

It kinda depends on who you ask. We don't even know for sure what the true objective was, we might find out soon if those documents are leaked though.


...

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
So to sum things up. The primary objective was to remove the Shiigeru fleet from Luminaire, and the secondary objective was to support Gallente insurrections fighting against the Provist.


Clearly, Fred has received these documents as he didn't know the answer himself when he started talking, but chanced upon the answers by the time he finished.

...

-Eran


I find you interesting and wish to subscribe to your Gal-Net newsfeed.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#51 - 2013-09-04 15:16:53 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
There are many nation who would like to see these missing documents. Let us hope that it is a whistleblower who has these documents, and will leak it out for all to see.

These documents are important evidence against Federation, not some reading for entertainment. They will be used in a trial against federal top management.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#52 - 2013-09-04 15:19:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That wasn't their primary objective though, was it? I thought getting the Shiigeru out of Luminaire was?

It was an operation to kill Caldari citizens. The whole goal of the operation was to provoke Shiigeru to kill State citizens, and when they failed, they dropped her on the planet instead.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#53 - 2013-09-04 15:28:24 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
These documents are important evidence against Federation, not some reading for entertainment. They will be used in a trial against federal top management.

By whom, you idiot child?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-09-04 15:32:09 UTC
Bureaucracy in action! It might have been thrown out with the trash.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#55 - 2013-09-04 15:43:07 UTC
One reason I'm against all but the barest amount of state secrecy (small s-state) is that people begin to fetishize secret documentation, imputing all kinds of near-mythological significance to it. Bureaucrats say a lot of stuff; they come up with a lot of different scenarios -- some of them downright wacky -- and give decision-makers a lot of advice, some of it downright vile.

It's their job. Even in the Federation it's possible to read too much into paperwork...
Anslo
Scope Works
#56 - 2013-09-04 16:42:54 UTC
I can neither confirm nor deny that The Scope may or may not have said document in hand with the word CLASSYFIEED written on its folder with black crayon.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#57 - 2013-09-04 16:44:05 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
These documents are important evidence against Federation, not some reading for entertainment. They will be used in a trial against federal top management.

By whom, you idiot child?

In fact, it is only you, who here is an idiot child, since you can't understand even by whom these documents will be used.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#58 - 2013-09-04 16:45:10 UTC
Anslo wrote:
I can neither confirm nor deny that The Scope may or may not have said document in hand with the word CLASSYFIEED written on its folder with black crayon.

Mr. Anslo, if the Scope would have these documents, they would be published long ago.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-09-04 16:53:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There we are in agreement, obviously. The current solution is, in point of fact, the closest to a resolution that is acceptable to both sides that I can imagine.


With a little luck and hard work, it might even be the foundation of some sort of solution to our current war.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#60 - 2013-09-04 17:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Diana Kim wrote:
In fact, it is only you, who here is an idiot child,

"NO, U!"

Diana Kim wrote:
since you can't understand even by whom these documents will be used.

Given your lax understanding of the law - take, for instance, how you somehow believe that the CBT is magically going to acquit Heth of terrorism and war crimes charges despite the fact that they literally have no jurisdiction whatsoever over such crimes, and furthermore are subservient to (and have no authority to overrule decisions made by) the CEP - I contend that you don't understand by whom these documents will be used any more than you contend anyone else does.

This is one of the few things we will all gladly admit ignorance of, Diana - we have no idea what goes on in that broken little brain of yours.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.