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possible way to balance minmatar

Author
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#41 - 2011-11-13 14:22:02 UTC
and back to the scortch this, pulse that comment - as much fun as it was to say that.

Lasers have never competed with blasters. . . ACs have.

seriously QED
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2011-11-13 14:55:40 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
and back to the scortch this, pulse that comment - as much fun as it was to say that.

Lasers have never competed with blasters. . . ACs have.

seriously QED



Wouldn't that be the problem now?
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#43 - 2011-11-13 15:22:52 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
...This looks to me that they both have the same duration. The optimal of the of the Blasters is almost double which means that while still in optimal the blaster is doing full damage and the AC is having to fight in falloff which means significantly reduce damage..

Why is it that I am always slammed for not knowing how fall-off works by the auto-protectionists only to have them base their defence on the fallacy I am accused of using?
At blaster optimal it is true that an auto is in fall-off .. however, the damage reduction is minuscule NOT significant as it is barely into falloff, in fact you don't really get any appreciable damage reduction (ie bigger than 20%) until you reach 50% falloff or so. Autos at optimal+50% falloff operate at ranges where blasters are almost at optimal+100% falloff at which point it is accurate to use the word significantly .... and that is raw damage, don't even have to mention damage type/fitting differences.

Autos are really that much better .. if they were not then I'd love to hear how the defence lobby explains why the notoriously FoTM addicted Eve population uses them to the extent that is the case.

They were overbuffed, quite severely in fact. Scary bit is that there were minnie fanatics that lobbied for twice what they got during discussion prior to buff ..
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-13 16:08:08 UTC
Hirana Yoshida, is right in the sense most pilots wanted more @ the time (because even I thought it was not a major change). The changes to hybrids now, is basically what projectiles got. However, what hybrids don't have is a their 'Tracking Enhancer'. Something that by it self was significant. When you look back. The changes to auto-cannons wasn't much of anything. All set-ups remained the same and had a slight increase in overall damage, damage selection and base increase to falloff. They boosted small auto-cannons by 5% in terms of damage, which was not needed. Then called it a day. Wasn't to long before the nano-Hurricane, nano-Rupture, nano-Deimos, nano-Astarte were being theory crafted. Made alot of sense since there was already a shield-Harbinger.

CCP could never have known what was going to happen with the changes to tracking enhancers. Pilots innovated and the rest was history. Strip away 'Tracking enhancer' and Minmatar didn't really change.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-11-13 21:02:50 UTC
Actually, i came to the conclusion that Minmatar are well balanced, but not for their role in combat, but the Gallente ones.

Weapons that work in a combat environment within the range of nos/neut, the fastest and most agile ships to get close to their opponents, multiple damage types to make every hit count... they are the perfect close-combat race (and incidentally the perfect sniper race as well: huge alpha, multiple damage types to make every hit count and agile ships to change position...)

If ACs would get the range of blasters and Arties the ranges of rails, minmatar wouldn´t be overpowered anymore but simply well suited for their purpose: the Gallente tactics.
Only because their advantages that should make up for their lack of weapon range are combined with a flexible engagement range they have (inevitably) become overpowered.

This is why Gallente are that gimped: If the Minmatar are optimized for their kind of fight and they have to be different, they have a serious problem. If they had the minmatar falloff, they would be well suited but not overpowered: good dps and tracking, but several flaws like cap+ammo, fixed damage types and such, the ships not the fastest but not the slowest either... reliable combatants and relatively easy to fly, but nothing really outstanding, the typical generalist.

so for balancing the Minmatar and the Gallente all at once you simply exchange the weapon ranges.

(well, before there are complaints: tracking and dps needs adjusted to the new ranges as well, the short range weapon needs more dps and tracking than the longer ranged one... also rails suck so hard they need some more changes to buff them).

So in the future Minmatar would be flown like the gallente and the gallente like the minmatar, and both would be well-balanced without being over- or underpowered.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-11-13 21:03:43 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
and back to the scortch this, pulse that comment - as much fun as it was to say that.

Lasers have never competed with blasters. . . ACs have.

seriously QED

Which perfectly illustrates why blasters need a buff. You buff blasters, suddenly ACs can't compete with them in their niche any more.

Granted, there is another option, namely nerf minmatar. The problem with that, is that if you nerf ACs down to where they're on par with blasters, while the current game balance shows that pulses are better than blasters in damn near every way, then you're essentially asking that both blasters and ACs be vastly inferior to pulses. I get that you like amarr, but come on, that's ridiculous.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-11-13 21:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Autos are really that much better .. if they were not then I'd love to hear how the defence lobby explains why the notoriously FoTM addicted Eve population uses them to the extent that is the case.


I've already answered this, multiple times. The most popular ship is whatever the largest, actively-fighting nullsec bloc is using. Canes are on top because Goonswarm decided to go ahead with Welpfleet. Before that, it was arty Maelstroms, again because Goonswarm had a fleet comp built around them. Prior, it was Abaddons, with the DRF and PL both using them.

Although that is probably because you refrain from responding to any point I raise.

Quote:
They were overbuffed, quite severely in fact. Scary bit is that there were minnie fanatics that lobbied for twice what they got during discussion prior to buff ..


WTB Tempest with 700 DPS at 60km.

Ruah Piskonit wrote:
and back to the scortch this, pulse that comment - as much fun as it was to say that.

Lasers have never competed with blasters. . . ACs have.

seriously QED


Was it this thread were Roosteron made a direct comparison between a pulse Geddon and a blaster Mega?

At any rate, yes Scorch and pulse are going to get mentioned and yes they are in competition, insofar as every damage-dealer is in competition with the others; in the metagame if not directly. Talking about ACs being 'overbuffed' while simultaneously trying to justify Scorch is a like being the cop who pulls over a sedan doing 80, while waving a Ferrari doing 120 through without pause.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2011-11-13 21:46:06 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:


WTB Tempest with 700 DPS at 60km.


6x1400mm arty close range ammo
2xdrone link
5 drones
well over 700dps

I love these noob matars , they have the most imba ships with most op weapons and they want to show us how bad matar is atm...
And brings up a lots of stupid reasoning why 70% eve flies matar and 80% uses projectiles , cause it cant be op right ,there has to be an other explanation for it.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2011-11-13 22:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Naomi Knight wrote:
I love these noob matars , they have the most imba ships with most op weapons and they want to show us how bad matar is atm...


http://i.imgur.com/LLfgC.png

Wow, my god, you mean like 570-odd DPS isn't 700? It's almost as if I picked that number for a reason or something?! Also, my main ship used isn't Minmatar, but better luck with your assumption.

But of course, let's see EVE as Ruah, Veshta and Naomi want it (no TEs).

http://i.imgur.com/MNAUK.png
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-11-13 22:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
I love these noob matars , they have the most imba ships with most op weapons and they want to show us how bad matar is atm...


http://i.imgur.com/LLfgC.png

Wow, my god, you mean like 570-odd DPS isn't 700? It's almost as if I picked that number for a reason or something?! Also, my main ship used isn't Minmatar, but better luck with your assumption.

But of course, let's see EVE as Ruah, Veshta and Naomi want it (no TEs).

http://i.imgur.com/MNAUK.png

you are a total fail i showed that tempest can dish out 700dps at 60km
pls show us where did i write i want no TEs

usual noob matar poster tries to find a spot where their favourite race isnt the best , even if that spot is possibly never happens
btw arty pests own every pulse fitted noob abaddons ,they can just chill at 80-100km and popp them one by one, oh no dps grap doesnt show that...

I know another matar boost : +200% eft paper dps efficiency
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-11-13 22:41:03 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
I love these noob matars , they have the most imba ships with most op weapons and they want to show us how bad matar is atm...


http://i.imgur.com/LLfgC.png

Wow, my god, you mean like 570-odd DPS isn't 700? It's almost as if I picked that number for a reason or something?! Also, my main ship used isn't Minmatar, but better luck with your assumption.

But of course, let's see EVE as Ruah, Veshta and Naomi want it (no TEs).

http://i.imgur.com/MNAUK.png



Hmm! If only Gallente could get more use out of TE's... Also! Comparing a short range weapon system with a long one..? Is this what it has come too!!! (ROFL).

The NERF Minmatar crowd is strong. I too have started to dislike seeing my chosen race. I even started to dislike flying and seeing Drakes not to long ago. Still, Minmatar are not overpowered.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-11-13 22:58:36 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
pls show us where did i write i want no TEs


my bad, mixed you up with the other crazy people in this thread

Quote:
usual noob matar poster tries to find a spot where their favourite race isnt the best , even if that spot is possibly never happens
btw arty pests own every pulse fitted noob abaddons ,they can just chill at 80-100km and popp them one by one, oh no dps grap doesnt show that...


1. Minmatar isn't even my favorite race for PvP.
2. You could look to any point in 2010 on my KB to see that I've been in arty Pest (both shield and armor) or Maelstrom fleets facing off against Hellcats.
3. No arty Pests don't "own" Hellcats, unless they have an absolutely gross numbers advantage. You're welcome to provide a BR showing otherwise though!
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-11-14 03:56:41 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
1. Minmatar isn't even my favorite race for PvP.
2. You could look to any point in 2010 on my KB to see that I've been in arty Pest (both shield and armor) or Maelstrom fleets facing off against Hellcats.
3. No arty Pests don't "own" Hellcats, unless they have an absolutely gross numbers advantage. You're welcome to provide a BR showing otherwise though!


Don't bother with trying to beat the stupid out of them. They are like religious fanatics that say what they want to hear and while you are talking, instead of listening, they are only coming up with more ways to tell you that they are correct and you are wrong.

Gallente are getting their buff. Minmatar and Amarr are fine. Tracking Enhancers have greatly increased Minmatar's viability in combat. They've also enhanced Amarr. I can see how it would be nice for them to have more of an impact on Gallente. However, these Gallentards don't want to hear any of that. They only want to go back to the day when Minmatar was the laughing stock of the PvP world. Well, that isn't happening. Bow down before your pvp overlords! :P

I'm done here. Beating a dead horse won't make it any more or less dead.
Fedimart
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-11-14 04:24:16 UTC
Someone please delete this troll thread!
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2011-11-14 04:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Naomi Knight wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
I love these noob matars , they have the most imba ships with most op weapons and they want to show us how bad matar is atm...


http://i.imgur.com/LLfgC.png

Wow, my god, you mean like 570-odd DPS isn't 700? It's almost as if I picked that number for a reason or something?! Also, my main ship used isn't Minmatar, but better luck with your assumption.

But of course, let's see EVE as Ruah, Veshta and Naomi want it (no TEs).

http://i.imgur.com/MNAUK.png

you are a total fail i showed that tempest can dish out 700dps at 60km
pls show us where did i write i want no TEs

usual noob matar poster tries to find a spot where their favourite race isnt the best , even if that spot is possibly never happens
btw arty pests own every pulse fitted noob abaddons ,they can just chill at 80-100km and popp them one by one, oh no dps grap doesnt show that...

I know another matar boost : +200% eft paper dps efficiency


Holy crap... Do you know how falloff works? Or how to read a DPS graph?

Your stupiditiy never ceases to amaze me. And just FYI, Amarr ships can do even more DPS at similar or greater distances.

Not to mention, including drones in DPS figures when we're talking about ranges in excess of 60km is extremely, extremely generous.
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#56 - 2011-11-14 04:49:40 UTC
So I heard that Minmatar/Angel ships take up 12 out of the top 20 on EVE-Kill.
Amarr have 4.
Caldari have 3.
Gallente have none.
Capsules have 1. Yes, apparently capsules are better at PVP than Gallente.

Comparing the weapons systems:
12 are projectile
2 are missile
4 are laser
2 are hybrid
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-11-14 05:13:39 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
So I heard that Minmatar/Angel ships take up 12 out of the top 20 on EVE-Kill.
Amarr have 4.
Caldari have 3.
Gallente have none.
Capsules have 1. Yes, apparently capsules are better at PVP than Gallente.

Comparing the weapons systems:
12 are projectile
2 are missile
4 are laser
2 are hybrid


I love how people keep luming Angels and Minmatar together. You do realize.... Angels aren't Minmatar.... right?
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-11-14 05:18:24 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
So I heard that Minmatar/Angel ships take up 12 out of the top 20 on EVE-Kill.
Amarr have 4.
Caldari have 3.
Gallente have none.
Capsules have 1. Yes, apparently capsules are better at PVP than Gallente.

Comparing the weapons systems:
12 are projectile
2 are missile
4 are laser
2 are hybrid


I love how people keep luming Angels and Minmatar together. You do realize.... Angels aren't Minmatar.... right?

Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-14 05:23:30 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
So I heard that Minmatar/Angel ships take up 12 out of the top 20 on EVE-Kill.
Amarr have 4.
Caldari have 3.
Gallente have none.
Capsules have 1. Yes, apparently capsules are better at PVP than Gallente.

Comparing the weapons systems:
12 are projectile
2 are missile
4 are laser
2 are hybrid

Well i guess that capsules show up has something to do with the ranking criteria and the fact that every pilot ends up in a capsule after his ship is destroyed, creating a statistical error.

Of course it´s also possible that capsules are indeed better than Gallente in PVP, i would´t rule that out completelyLol

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2011-11-14 05:24:46 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait.


Yet some how.... all the angel ships have more speed and more range than Minmatar.... so yah, let's lump them together so we can say that Minmatar needs to be nerfed.

Then obviously Gallente is OP. Seen the Vindi, Vigilant, and Daredevil? Hell, the Vigilant can hit out to 21k with high damage blaster ammo! The Daredevil can put out Cruiser DPS! Nerf Gallente!

Idiots like you constantly astound me.