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Idea: Make warfare links only affect your grid

Author
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-11-13 20:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Currently, this is how warfare links line up:

They buff everyone in your fleet, in your system.

T3's with the warfare link sub are the best warfare linking ships short of a titan. This make fleet command ships, which are harder to train for, somewhat obsolete.

The only way to counter a warfare-linking ship which is off grid is to take the time to probe it down, which is incredibly hard when dealing with t3's. (even after unprobeability was nerfed.)

We never see these ships on the field of battle, and they have been relegated to sitting in a safe because there is pretty much no need to have them on the battlefield, as they can do their job without being there.

My suggestion is to make it so that warfare links will only affect a fleeted ship if it is on the same grid as you.

This would accomplish the following:

These ships will now get shot at. This will prompt people to actually use fleet command ships, or hell, even t1 BC's, as cheaper alternatives to t3's, which are more affordable to lose.

They're more easily counterable. "solo PVPers" will no longer be able to buff their main to ridiculous levels by sitting their alt in a safespot, they actually have to dualbox their alt and their main in combat.

Another thing to look at, if this is to be implemented, is a slight buff to the combat abilities of warfare link t3's/fleet command ships, so that they aren't going to just be a dead weight while they're fighting. Obviously, they should still be less potent than combat fitted t3's and field command ships, but making them slightly more useful in combat can't hurt, either.

Addition by Shcnoo: Make warfare links a form of "assistance," so that you are flagged to the enemies of whoever you link.

/Discuss?
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#2 - 2011-11-13 20:52:06 UTC
I'd go further than that:
Make it so that boosting people with those modules is the same as repping them, i.e it allows for retaliation (solves: People using alts to boost themselves in wars).

But your proposal alone would allow for better PVE gameplay (which also removes those boosting Orca alts in incursions).
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-11-13 20:53:58 UTC
Schnoo wrote:
I'd go further than that:
Make it so that boosting people with those modules is the same as repping them, i.e it allows for retaliation (solves: People using alts to boost themselves in wars).

But your proposal alone would allow for better PVE gameplay (which also removes those boosting Orca alts in incursions).


Brilliant, I didn't think of that. I'll add it to the original post. Big smile
Sigras
Conglomo
#4 - 2011-11-13 20:56:15 UTC
I really like this idea because it makes you choose, do I want 1 link at 5% or 3 @ 3%, right now everyone says "why choose? i can have 3 @ 5% completely safe sitting in a tower"
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-13 23:05:18 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I really like this idea because it makes you choose, do I want 1 link at 5% or 3 @ 3%, right now everyone says "why choose? i can have 3 @ 5% completely safe sitting in a tower"


Yep, this is precisely what I'm going for.
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#6 - 2011-11-14 03:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss CEO
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-11-14 03:20:01 UTC
Miss CEO wrote:
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.


Oh, man, that brings back memories. Seriously though, it has been ages since this actually happened to me.

Even if this does still happen to some people, glitchy game mechanics shouldn't hold back a good idea. Fix the glitchy game mechanics, then introduce the idea?
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#8 - 2011-11-14 03:21:25 UTC
Miss CEO wrote:
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.


Could make it radius-based. Say, 500km. The game should have no problem doing the basic vector math to figure out the range of a particular fleet member (or even squads) from the booster.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-14 03:22:31 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Miss CEO wrote:
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.


Could make it radius-based. Say, 500km. The game should have no problem doing the basic vector math to figure out the range of a particular fleet member (or even squads) from the booster.


Good point, this is another alternative.
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#10 - 2011-11-14 03:36:48 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Miss CEO wrote:
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.


Could make it radius-based. Say, 500km. The game should have no problem doing the basic vector math to figure out the range of a particular fleet member (or even squads) from the booster.


I cant say that I know how EVE node calculates distances, but this sounds like a lot of calculations. I mean, you cant just limit it on the objects on grid since grid is the actual issue.

So node would have to go through every pilot in system and see if the next commander in fleet is within range and then see if pilots under them are in range, one by one. This has to be calculated for each booster in system and it has to be calculated once every second (or what ever the server cycle rate is set to). With current state of servers I simply can not see this extra calculation happening. Maybe after TD is implemented and working as intended.

What comes to simply fixing the grid issues... If it was so simple that it could be "just fixed", I'm sure we would not have an issue at all. Unfortunately things do not always happen just because we wish them to happen.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-14 03:53:58 UTC
Miss CEO wrote:
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Miss CEO wrote:
and what happens when grid starts acting funny (as it does every now and then) and drop's half of the fleet on 2nd grid? Does this mean that these victims of grid are not supposed to have fleet bonuses even though the boosting ship could be just few km away?

On grid boosting has many interesting aspects that make it kinda nice, however there is one issue with it. It does not work reliably in actual game play.


Could make it radius-based. Say, 500km. The game should have no problem doing the basic vector math to figure out the range of a particular fleet member (or even squads) from the booster.


I cant say that I know how EVE node calculates distances, but this sounds like a lot of calculations. I mean, you cant just limit it on the objects on grid since grid is the actual issue.

So node would have to go through every pilot in system and see if the next commander in fleet is within range and then see if pilots under them are in range, one by one. This has to be calculated for each booster in system and it has to be calculated once every second (or what ever the server cycle rate is set to). With current state of servers I simply can not see this extra calculation happening. Maybe after TD is implemented and working as intended.

What comes to simply fixing the grid issues... If it was so simple that it could be "just fixed", I'm sure we would not have an issue at all. Unfortunately things do not always happen just because we wish them to happen.


You might be a logi RRing someone when you end up off grid, causing whoever you were RRing to die. You might be a HIC, trying to pin down an enemy super to stop it from warping, who ends up off grid when he's burning to the super and is unable to slap his infinipoint on.

This glitch - if it still exists, as I haven't experienced it for ages - is hardly going to be limited to this idea, and the idea shouldn't be kicked to the curb because of it. While it's all well and good if the glitch does get fixed, even if it doesn't, it will affect just about everyone, to the point where a single claymore going offgrid will probably be the the least of your worries.
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#12 - 2011-11-14 07:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss CEO
All true. The grid issue is not limited to this idea and should not be a limiting factor when implementing new good ideas. However, I fail to see why this idea with it's limitations would be better than the current working implementation. I mean really... one works while the other might not.... do the math Big smile
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#13 - 2011-11-14 07:39:40 UTC
It's fine as is. If you dislike off grid boosters, bring a prober. It's honestly not that hard to catch them if you get the guy's main toon engaged so he can't pay attention to the booster alt. And I second the concern of making it on grid only potentially breaking it while it currently works just fine.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-11-14 12:56:52 UTC
I remember one of the devs saying they "were looking at making command bonuses only affect those on the same grid" a while back... since nothing ever came of it I guess they ran into implementation issues (like those above) and it's been dropped to "backlog ideas" or something...

might be worth going over the situations where it falls down and trying to come up with some solutions / rules to handle them fairly and effectively

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-11-14 15:14:20 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
It's fine as is. If you dislike off grid boosters, bring a prober. It's honestly not that hard to catch them if you get the guy's main toon engaged so he can't pay attention to the booster alt. And I second the concern of making it on grid only potentially breaking it while it currently works just fine.


....And if the booster is sitting in a POS?

It's really not fine as it is. People using T3's to give massive fleet bonuses with extremely minimal risk to themselves is not fine.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-11-14 16:11:24 UTC
Easier buff, make links work while docked up and across the entire region Shocked. No need to deal with an offgrid and probing, just find out the alt, run a locator, and dock up in the same station to stare at the portrait while *Robert Dinero 2 fingers to the eyes and points at a screen* Watching you.

Or you could I don't know...BRING YOUR OWN OFF GRID BOOSTER AND PUT YOURSELF ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD OF THE GUY YOU DESPISE CAUSE THIS IS EVE AND THERE ARE NO GENEVA CONVENTION RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT SAYS HOW YOU CAN PLAY SO I THOUGHT TO MENTION IT , JUST SAYING....*looks around* Who said that? What?
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#17 - 2011-11-14 16:28:48 UTC
This becomes more of a cpu issue than mehcanics issue, If they could do it without adding lag I am quite sure they've would have.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-11-14 16:38:01 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Easier buff, make links work while docked up and across the entire region Shocked. No need to deal with an offgrid and probing, just find out the alt, run a locator, and dock up in the same station to stare at the portrait while *Robert Dinero 2 fingers to the eyes and points at a screen* Watching you.

Or you could I don't know...BRING YOUR OWN OFF GRID BOOSTER AND PUT YOURSELF ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD OF THE GUY YOU DESPISE CAUSE THIS IS EVE AND THERE ARE NO GENEVA CONVENTION RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT SAYS HOW YOU CAN PLAY SO I THOUGHT TO MENTION IT , JUST SAYING....*looks around* Who said that? What?


This is sort of like saying the best way to counter a falcon is by jamming it. It's just silly when there's no other way. Straight
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#19 - 2011-11-14 19:15:09 UTC
What happens when you split your fleet across all the gates in a system to catch incoming hostiles? I know lets set up a special squad for each gate with its own on grid booster, yeah. This might work for a big fleet, but a 20 man gang shouldnt have to bring half a dozen command ships to keep bonuses up every time the fleet is spread across multiple grids.

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-11-14 19:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Griznatch wrote:
What happens when you split your fleet across all the gates in a system to catch incoming hostiles? I know lets set up a special squad for each gate with its own on grid booster, yeah. This might work for a big fleet, but a 20 man gang shouldnt have to bring half a dozen command ships to keep bonuses up every time the fleet is spread across multiple grids.


Perhaps let multiple boosters be in one squad, and when they're on the same grid, the one with higher skills is used?

So if you need half your fleet to jump through to one side of a gate, you can have your second CS go with that half, and then have boosts on both sides. Then once the fleet jumps back together to kill something, whichever CS provides better bonuses is used.

Edit: Another alternative is to remove the limitations altogether. Then we'd have awesome things like a fleet of 20 claymores, all skirmish boosting each other. TwistedTwistedTwisted
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