These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Damage mods stacking?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Fire Itup
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-09-03 03:46:55 UTC
Lets say i have a ship with 100dps add a mod which increases that by 10%
my new dps is 110 so i decided to add another 10% mod will it be 10% from 110 or 100
i know with stacking penalty it would only be 80% effect or so though and 50% for a 3rd
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2013-09-03 04:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
It's all multiplicative. The first damage mod adds its full value: 100 * .1 + 100 = 110. The second uses the 110 as its new multiplicative base but is penalized: 110*.1*.87 + 110 = 119.57.

Note that this happens for each stat, so in the case of damage mods both the raw damage boost and the rate of fire boost are calculated separately. This becomes important when you start to add rigs that affect one stat but not the other.

Usually the second damage mod adds more raw damage than the first despite the stacking penalty because of how rate of fire bonuses work combined with the fact that you use the modified stat as the starting point for the second calculation.

Edit: and stacks work like this:

1st mod: 100%
2nd mod: 86.912%
3rd mod: 57.058%
4th mod: 28.296%
5th mod: 10.599%
6th mod: 2.999%
7th mod: .6410%

And really if you go beyond that there's something very, very wrong with your fit.
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-09-03 07:35:42 UTC
Also the stacking penalties apply first to the worst modules in type. This means the scripted TC's provide less penalized bonus and push penalties to unscripted computers.

Also, Burst Aerator II is stacking penalized favorably with damage mods and adds a nice bonus dps even after 4 faction damage mods: the highest rate of fire modifier (BA II) is unpenalized and the smaller ROF bonuses get the penalties.
Zane Lowe
Our Sanctum
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2013-09-03 15:37:47 UTC
The Spod wrote:
Also the stacking penalties apply first to the worst modules in type. This means the scripted TC's provide less penalized bonus and push penalties to unscripted computers.

Also, Burst Aerator II is stacking penalized favorably with damage mods and adds a nice bonus dps even after 4 faction damage mods: the highest rate of fire modifier (BA II) is unpenalized and the smaller ROF bonuses get the penalties.


Actually, it doesn't matter what mod the stacking penalty applies to. It's the same DPS if the highest modifier is penalized the most, or of it's penalized the least, because math is fun.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2013-09-03 15:50:36 UTC
Zane Lowe wrote:
The Spod wrote:
Also the stacking penalties apply first to the worst modules in type. This means the scripted TC's provide less penalized bonus and push penalties to unscripted computers.

Also, Burst Aerator II is stacking penalized favorably with damage mods and adds a nice bonus dps even after 4 faction damage mods: the highest rate of fire modifier (BA II) is unpenalized and the smaller ROF bonuses get the penalties.


Actually, it doesn't matter what mod the stacking penalty applies to. It's the same DPS if the highest modifier is penalized the most, or of it's penalized the least, because math is fun.


Congratulations, you've made the classic mistake in misunderstanding the stacking penalty. While it's true that multiplication is normally commutative, stacking math is not.

Let's do a very simply example with two mods. The base stat is 100. Mod A increases it 50%. Mod B increases it 10%. Let's apply things properly first:

100 * .5 + 100 = 150 after Mod A
150 * .1 * .87 + 150 = 163.05 after Mod B (stacking penalized)

Now let's do things backwards:

100 * .1 + 100 = 110 after Mod B
110 * .5 * .87 +110 = 157.85 after Mod A (erroneously stacking penalized)

Obviously as you get deeper into the stack (and thus the penalty) this effect is exaggerated.

But yes, order does in fact matter in this case. Stacking is not commutative.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-09-03 16:09:02 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Congratulations, you've made the classic mistake in misunderstanding the stacking penalty. While it's true that multiplication is normally commutative, stacking math is not.

thanks for saving me the hassle to write it up. have a thumb.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-09-03 17:42:03 UTC
Do skill bonuses stack in the same way, multiplicatively with the highest applied first? Obviously without penalties. For instance, the Covert Ops skill gives 10% bonus per level to probe strength (assuming you are flying a covert ops frig) and Astrometric Rangefinding gives a 5% per level bonus to probe strength. So two scenarios:

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 1 = 5% bonus

The 10% bonus is applied first?

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 3 = 15% bonus

Now is the 15% bonus is applied first? Or is priority based on base bonus level?

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-09-03 18:33:18 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Do skill bonuses stack in the same way, multiplicatively with the highest applied first? Obviously without penalties. For instance, the Covert Ops skill gives 10% bonus per level to probe strength (assuming you are flying a covert ops frig) and Astrometric Rangefinding gives a 5% per level bonus to probe strength. So two scenarios:

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 1 = 5% bonus

The 10% bonus is applied first?

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 3 = 15% bonus

Now is the 15% bonus is applied first? Or is priority based on base bonus level?



Pretty sure skills and hull bonuses have no effect on stacking....nor do they stack with each other.

Only mods and rigs.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2013-09-03 19:46:14 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Do skill bonuses stack in the same way, multiplicatively with the highest applied first? Obviously without penalties. For instance, the Covert Ops skill gives 10% bonus per level to probe strength (assuming you are flying a covert ops frig) and Astrometric Rangefinding gives a 5% per level bonus to probe strength. So two scenarios:

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 1 = 5% bonus

The 10% bonus is applied first?

Covert Ops level 1 = 10% bonus
Astrometric Rangefinding level 3 = 15% bonus

Now is the 15% bonus is applied first? Or is priority based on base bonus level?


Remember when I said that stacking is special because it means that multiplication is no longer commutative? Well, since these aren't stacked (no skill bonuses are stacked to my knowledge) then multiplication is indeed commutative again.

In other words, order doesn't matter.

1 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 1 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 1.265 no matter how you do it.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-09-03 20:02:15 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
In other words, order doesn't matter.

1 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 1 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 1.265 no matter how you do it.


Alright, so skill bonuses are added together, instead of stacking multiplicatively.

I'm assuming they are applied before the module bonuses, so 1.265 would be the base level before mod modification?

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2013-09-03 20:10:13 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
In other words, order doesn't matter.

1 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 1 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 1.265 no matter how you do it.


Alright, so skill bonuses are added together, instead of stacking multiplicatively.

I'm assuming they are applied before the module bonuses, so 1.265 would be the base level before mod modification?


No, no. They're still multiplied. If those were added it would be 1.25, not 1.265.

If it's easier to think of all that happening before mods come in, you can do it that way. In reality it's more accurate to say that all the mods, with their stacking penalties, generate another multiplicative factor that goes into the same pool.

So if you get something odd like 1.6562 from mods after stacking has fully applied, 1.5 from a ship-related skill, and 1.25 from another skill, you can simply multiply all those together -- in any order -- to get your final bonus: 3.105375 no matter what order you do that multiplication in.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-09-03 20:14:40 UTC
Very obvious, now that I look at it again. I was reading what I wanted to read apparently, while my mind was on work Big smile

Thanks again!

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Bendak Starcrusher
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-09-03 20:29:34 UTC
Lot of useless posting in here.. NOW TO THE SUBJECT: 100 OR 110??

10% of base damage 100 ...NO STACKING..

your base damage of your weapon/ammo with out skills.

skill base damage off base damage like 100
you.

mods base off base damage.


so you have:

1 mod for 10%
2 mod for 25%
skills for 50%


mod 1: 100/10. =10

mod 2 100/100 = 1 x 25= 25

skill doesn't stack.
10% per level would be 50 dps out of 100 base dps..
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2013-09-04 03:58:50 UTC
Bendak Starcrusher wrote:
Lot of useless posting in here.. NOW TO THE SUBJECT: 100 OR 110??

10% of base damage 100 ...NO STACKING..

your base damage of your weapon/ammo with out skills.

skill base damage off base damage like 100
you.

mods base off base damage.


so you have:

1 mod for 10%
2 mod for 25%
skills for 50%


mod 1: 100/10. =10

mod 2 100/100 = 1 x 25= 25

skill doesn't stack.
10% per level would be 50 dps out of 100 base dps..


I honestly have no idea what you just said. I think you're asserting that modules that affect other modules only affect pre-skill stats. And that's wrong. But I'm not sure if you're saying that or not.