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Is it against the EULA to use a website that calculates profits of items sold?

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#21 - 2013-09-02 14:40:33 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Yes, it does not interact with the game client, please read
I did read, and in doing so, I noted these passages:

“a program that updates your market orders automatically”
“The program will alert you and auto scroll to your entry”

Since you didn't specify that it does this in the spreadsheet, and not the client, it certainly sounds a lot like client interaction.

Quote:
Click on the enxt button on client it will give you the enxt order to be pasted.
…and this just further suggests that you're doing something in the client rather than outside of it.

No its probably just reading from the screen or something. Or extracting the data the same way EFT extracts data. Personally I think stuff like that should be banned as it speeds up your trading so that others not using similiar cannot compete but what can you do.

Where do you draw the line though. If I'm better at math, so can quickly work out my margins, should I be banned from trading? What about calculators? What about pen and paper? BAN PEN AND PAPER COS ITS BETTER THAN MEMORY!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#22 - 2013-09-02 15:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Ever owned a NES back in the day? The instruction booklets came with a NOTES section. You were not allowed to write in that space, Nintendo would erase your cardridge if you ever scribbled in that section. Big smile
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#23 - 2013-09-02 15:10:56 UTC
To those saying my market interaction and specifically my tool should be against the rules, I agree it should but it's not. I would also like to see ISO boxers banned and a complete restart of the tranquility server. It's not fair to new players to ban these tools and allow vets to keep their ill gotten gains.

TLDR;

Wipe Clean Tranquility, while banning ISO boxing, market cache scraping (or scraping off eve central which scrapes eve market cache) and implement a vac style ban on botting and any program that interacts with the eve client what so ever that has not specifically been granted access.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#24 - 2013-09-02 15:35:19 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
To those saying my market interaction and specifically my tool should be against the rules, I agree it should but it's not. I would also like to see ISO boxers banned and a complete restart of the tranquility server. It's not fair to new players to ban these tools and allow vets to keep their ill gotten gains.

TLDR;

Wipe Clean Tranquility, while banning ISO boxing, market cache scraping (or scraping off eve central which scrapes eve market cache) and implement a vac style ban on botting and any program that interacts with the eve client what so ever that has not specifically been granted access.

How do you enforce a ban on cache scraping? Bearing in mind the cache is just a local dump of the data the client is using, it would be impossible for people to be caught doing it. Also, a server restart would guarantee the death of EVE. I'm fairly sure many vets would stop playing. I would, I'm not going through years of learning core skills again just to appease everyone quitting WoW and coming here. Also how would you deal with where people have paid real money to buy plex and then bought in game stuff with that? Is that just "tough luck"?
There's so many things wrong with this whole idea, I find it hard to believe you could see past them all to think this was a good idea.

Oh and your market "program", so people pay you 250m, and may or may not receive a spreadsheet which does something?
Do you not have like a website, with features lists and screenshots and all that jazz, or are people supposed to just chuck money at you and hope for the best?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-09-02 15:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ressiv
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's not a program though is it. It's at most a script for a program.

I tend to write web application for my own input and in game stuff, a database to handle all of the data storage, then use SSIS to import data and SSRS to report on it.


For all practicall purposes, it takes certain data, and outputs other data, and displays it nice if done right .. sure it's a long shot from being worthy of the term 'program', but it's simple and it does the job ..

The fact you know how to write real stuff makes your stuff more complicated, but there is no guarantee it will work better..

Each has its place, and looking down on something because it only uses vbscript and perhaps some datasources is not needed.


Edit: I work for a pretty large IT department where managers seem unable to use an interface and NEED to see stuff in excel sheets because they cant work with it otherwise .. yes .. sad at an IT department, but happening all the time.

This makes it better for us to report in excel for certain systems, cuz we can pull it mure easily that way for those stupid managers .. data is data .. even if MS pissed on it.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-09-02 16:23:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Yes, it does not interact with the game client, please read
I did read, and in doing so, I noted these passages:

“a program that updates your market orders automatically”
“The program will alert you and auto scroll to your entry”

Since you didn't specify that it does this in the spreadsheet, and not the client, it certainly sounds a lot like client interaction.

Quote:
Click on the enxt button on client it will give you the enxt order to be pasted.
…and this just further suggests that you're doing something in the client rather than outside of it.

No its probably just reading from the screen or something. Or extracting the data the same way EFT extracts data. Personally I think stuff like that should be banned as it speeds up your trading so that others not using similiar cannot compete but what can you do.

Where do you draw the line though. If I'm better at math, so can quickly work out my margins, should I be banned from trading? What about calculators? What about pen and paper? BAN PEN AND PAPER COS ITS BETTER THAN MEMORY!

Yeah I know. That's why I said what can you do?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Chic Botany
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-09-02 16:50:38 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
This Just In: Spreadsheets banned from EVE Online


but that means I'll have to go out into space instead of playing with Excel ShockedSadXCryUghQuestionAttention
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-09-02 17:24:30 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
There is someone on my voice comms that swears some one was banned for this...

I found a website that takes a blueprint and automatically calculates profits over just selling the minerals using Jita prices.

You just enter a blue print and it tells you how many minerals are required. I'm not really an industrialist so I don't know how much I would personally use the site, but it seems odd that it would be something bannable to use. How would they know you are using it anyways?

The person on my voice comms says that someone was banned for using a website like this. I pointed out that I remember the guy from EVE University, but from my recolection he was using an automated process to buy and sell with enourmous volume that no human could do?

And if this website is illegal, what makes it illegal versus say EVE Central?

This question is more or less to resolve a personal debate with this person.


There was a uni who swore he did nothing but log in his accounts, cut & paste between a spreadsheet and EVE for marketing. He made a lot of isk.

He was suspended for a hacking, got mad about it being as he said he never hacked, so he donated his profits to the uni and quit the game for being 'falsely accused'. CCP came out, said he'd been hacking, seized his donation.

Some here may remember it. He'd gone so far as to fully outline exactly what he'd done but CCP said he was hacking. He wasn't banned outright, suspended then quit on his own.

I know of someone who tried what he did for a bit (to see if it was possible to do manually) and could duplicate his pace after a few days practice. He wasn't nailed for hacking but was very angry and made a lot of noise about the guy who did quit.

One of those may be the foundation for your friend's assertion. CCP said hacker, someone duplicated based upon manual actions... I personally don't know and it's not something I care to dig into.

I'd just suggest you be careful about how quickly you can process blocks of updates using such a method. If you get really good at it, you may get nailed. "Just in case" - a lot of hacks can only be spotted by activity profiling.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#29 - 2013-09-02 17:40:22 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's not a program though is it. It's at most a script for a program.

I tend to write web application for my own input and in game stuff, a database to handle all of the data storage, then use SSIS to import data and SSRS to report on it.


For all practicall purposes, it takes certain data, and outputs other data, and displays it nice if done right .. sure it's a long shot from being worthy of the term 'program', but it's simple and it does the job ..

The fact you know how to write real stuff makes your stuff more complicated, but there is no guarantee it will work better..

Each has its place, and looking down on something because it only uses vbscript and perhaps some datasources is not needed.


Edit: I work for a pretty large IT department where managers seem unable to use an interface and NEED to see stuff in excel sheets because they cant work with it otherwise .. yes .. sad at an IT department, but happening all the time.

This makes it better for us to report in excel for certain systems, cuz we can pull it mure easily that way for those stupid managers .. data is data .. even if MS pissed on it.

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying a spreadsheet can;t do the job. But a spreadsheet is still not a program. The "program" is excel. You are simply providing it with the input it requires to get the job done. Just because you chucked a couple of lines of vbscript into it doesn't make it any more of a program.

Businesses always love excel because generally all end users have had some level of exposure to it already. We try to migrate as many of ours to fixed systems (SSRS, SSAS) as possible, as performance and reliability of excel spreadsheets suffers in the long run with larger volumes of data.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#30 - 2013-09-02 21:14:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ressiv wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's not a program though is it. It's at most a script for a program.

I tend to write web application for my own input and in game stuff, a database to handle all of the data storage, then use SSIS to import data and SSRS to report on it.


For all practicall purposes, it takes certain data, and outputs other data, and displays it nice if done right .. sure it's a long shot from being worthy of the term 'program', but it's simple and it does the job ..

The fact you know how to write real stuff makes your stuff more complicated, but there is no guarantee it will work better..

Each has its place, and looking down on something because it only uses vbscript and perhaps some datasources is not needed.


Edit: I work for a pretty large IT department where managers seem unable to use an interface and NEED to see stuff in excel sheets because they cant work with it otherwise .. yes .. sad at an IT department, but happening all the time.

This makes it better for us to report in excel for certain systems, cuz we can pull it mure easily that way for those stupid managers .. data is data .. even if MS pissed on it.

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying a spreadsheet can;t do the job. But a spreadsheet is still not a program. The "program" is excel. You are simply providing it with the input it requires to get the job done. Just because you chucked a couple of lines of vbscript into it doesn't make it any more of a program.

Businesses always love excel because generally all end users have had some level of exposure to it already. We try to migrate as many of ours to fixed systems (SSRS, SSAS) as possible, as performance and reliability of excel spreadsheets suffers in the long run with larger volumes of data.



The worst thing a business can have: important business processes locked up in an excel sheet that only one person understands, which is fragile. (change something, everything breaks)

Well, maybe not the worst. But it's up there.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-09-03 01:46:53 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
[quote=Steve Ronuken]

Unless you expect to run a website or want a real fancy program, a spreadsheet with macro's will do, and IS a program.


It's a platform specific script, not a program. There's a difference.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#32 - 2013-09-03 02:19:35 UTC
So how long until CCP disables pasting into market order dialog box?

Cache scraping only works while the game maintains a cache on disk.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nalestom Zypher
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-09-03 02:49:19 UTC
The simple fact of the matter is that there will always be botters, and (especially in Eve) there will always be players who will go as far as they possibly can to maximize their efficiency at whatever profession they choose. If pasting into the market order dialog box is disabled, other market traders will still complain about their competition using cache scrapers. If cache scraping is made illegal, people will still do it unless CCP obfuscates it, and other market traders will still complain about their competition using spreadsheets, and so on and so forth.

Any program or script that directly manipulates the Eve client is and should be illegal. Outside of that, everything else should be fair ground; this is Eve, and it should reward those who are willing to go the extra mile to collect and analyze data from the game.

My blog: http://www.webifier.blogspot.com Twitter: @Nalestom
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-09-03 03:18:25 UTC
Nalestom Zypher wrote:

Any program or script that directly manipulates the Eve client is and should be illegal. Outside of that, everything else should be fair ground; this is Eve, and it should reward those who are willing to go the extra mile to collect and analyze data from the game.

I tend to agree. Any inputs to the eve client have to be done by human hands.

Beyond that, I think it should be fair game.

Unfortunately, decisions over systems like bacon have made the details of going the other way blurry. Scraping the cache for market details to analyze so you can maximise your trading profit is ok, but scraping the log server so you can beep when people enter local is not, and CCP actually changed what the log server logged to stop it working.

El whut?

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Marttax Depran
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-09-03 04:18:22 UTC
What's the site?
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-09-03 04:53:54 UTC
Marttax Depran wrote:
What's the site?


Sounds like fuzzworks to me, especially since the guy who wrote it has been posting in this thread:

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#37 - 2013-09-04 09:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Lucas Kell wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
To those saying my market interaction and specifically my tool should be against the rules, I agree it should but it's not. I would also like to see ISO boxers banned and a complete restart of the tranquility server. It's not fair to new players to ban these tools and allow vets to keep their ill gotten gains.

TLDR;

Wipe Clean Tranquility, while banning ISO boxing, market cache scraping (or scraping off eve central which scrapes eve market cache) and implement a vac style ban on botting and any program that interacts with the eve client what so ever that has not specifically been granted access.

How do you enforce a ban on cache scraping? Bearing in mind the cache is just a local dump of the data the client is using, it would be impossible for people to be caught doing it. Also, a server restart would guarantee the death of EVE. I'm fairly sure many vets would stop playing. I would, I'm not going through years of learning core skills again just to appease everyone quitting WoW and coming here. Also how would you deal with where people have paid real money to buy plex and then bought in game stuff with that? Is that just "tough luck"?
There's so many things wrong with this whole idea, I find it hard to believe you could see past them all to think this was a good idea.

Oh and your market "program", so people pay you 250m, and may or may not receive a spreadsheet which does something?
Do you not have like a website, with features lists and screenshots and all that jazz, or are people supposed to just chuck money at you and hope for the best?



No I'm not making a website for a simple program, I'm not that into eve. The peeps who have my program have not complained, not that I would care anyway. 250m for sending an email is good isk anything above that I can't be bothered. Eve is supposed to be a game and fun, if your not having fun then you are playing it wrong that's why I made the program, I isk wars are not fun I'd rather have my spread sheet do the brain power for me and all i have to do is press a single key to keep it EULA legal. Part of the reason I am a low and NPC null sec scrub and nothing more, sov is not fun and neither is epeen leaderships.
sally Deninard
mss industry
#38 - 2013-09-04 11:32:13 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
No, It's not even against EULA to use a program that updates your market orders automatically for you to copy and paste into eve market. As long as all automation takes place outside the client (same reason ISO boxer is legal and other programs)

Feel free to eve mail me as I sell such a program I created for 250m. I use my own personal spread sheet which caps a high buy price and a low sell price, you will have to fill this in to your hearts content. I'm able to 1 isk hundreds of items in a matter of minutes with zero effort or number crunching beyond my pre set by limits which I update bi monthly. The program will alert you and auto scroll to your entry once it detects that your buy price or sell price is no longer the regions best. It will then supply a new best value and copy it for you ready for you to (ctrl v) paste into eve market. I advise changing your ctrl v to a single keyboard stroke( this is explained in the read me.)

The program was capable of scrolling through the eve market and opening the change box for you to paste but I have disabled this option as it's probabbly not EULA legal but even that is hazy as ISO boxer interacts with clients in such manners. I also advise you to heed all ccp warnings and messages you get regarding my program and to limit your use to human like and sensible level.s

I charge a flat fee of 250m for the program which will be emailed to you, (the file is tiny) , I do not offer support beyond the read me file and I have no plans to update it or add further features. It works well for me, you are free to mod to your hearts content but I'd ask you not to sell it or forward it.

Submit payment in game with reason as Brew's Market Tool at cost 250m isk. Send me an eve mail with your email and any questions that are not answered in the read me file. I will choose to ignore any silly questions as I'm not spoon feeding you this easy to use program. Also no ISK no reply and don't convo me in game you will be ignored and possibely blocked, eve mail with isk replys only.


3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

It was the copy / paste feature of( i think )eve marketeer that was causing the problem with e uni`s "jon the bot".
If you change market orders in an automated fashion (ie without manually typing it into the eve market box ) it will appear that you are botting.
Some clarification by CCP on this would be nice
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-09-04 17:19:25 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:



The worst thing a business can have: important business processes locked up in an excel sheet that only one person understands, which is fragile. (change something, everything breaks)

Well, maybe not the worst. But it's up there.


Like, for instance, the backup schedules and logs ? 'They' still think it's not all that important ... even when Excel 2010 broke half a gazillion things in linked sheets that use NT permissions for edit ranges ..

You are right tho :p

Sir Substance wrote:

It's a platform specific script, not a program. There's a difference.


That holds true for even PHP ;) IMHO excel becomes a program once there is sufficient VBScript in there that takes care of key functions used in the sheet. The sheet itself just becomes the dataset and bucket for the vb program in that case.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#40 - 2013-09-04 17:59:29 UTC
As far as I am aware, there is nothing about that that can/would make it illegal. However, ISD do not set, interpret, or enforce the EULA/ToS, so a better recourse than to listen to me (or to anyone else soapboxing here) would be to file a support ticket with your question. The Eve GM team can answer in an official manner.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
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