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Crime & Punishment

 
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Knowledge is Power: A new service in the world of espionage.

Author
Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-09-02 21:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Shadow Accordium are purveyors of information, knowledge and secrets. Stolen from the shadowy depths and sold on to whoever asks.


How it works – The simple version

Agents from all over the universe, whether they be solo, in corporations or alliances offer up inside information on the entities they have come to know.

This information is then available to any and all who ask for it, for a price.

The provider of the information takes a cut of that price and everyone is happy.

If you want to sell information, get in touch. If you want to buy information, get in touch.

How it actually works – The detailed version

The information

On my end, I hold a database containing every tidbit of information that is sent to me, I record what the information is, who sent it to me and when it was sent. The current plan looks like this (three data sets with component parts):

Corporations/alliances:
- Personnel
- Member list/roles and current/last activity
- Current operating location/ship/activities
- Current tensions/disagreements (unhappy members etc.)
- Spies, informants and saboteurs
- Friends of the entity/regular contractors
- Standings list

Assets:
- Location of POS's
- Number of capitals
- Location of capitals
- Capitals/POS's in construction
- Other assets of interest
- Current ISK balance/general state of assets
- Contracts
- Stations (also in construction)

Strategy:
- Current operating location/activity
- Internal politics/debates
- Internal strategy decisions/discussions
- State of entity based programs (SRP, mining, defence etc)
- Current votes

API keys will never be bought or sold by Shadow Accordium.

This is just a preliminary list of what could be useful to information seekers. Obviously, if you think of something you'd like to know, then ask and if you have something someone may want, then send it over.

There may also be provision for collecting information on individuals and collecting real time data, but this will be looked into once things are more established.

The agent

The basis of this idea is that pilots, whoever they may be provide us with information. By doing so they are eligible to a cut from any money made from selling that information on. A few bits of important information:

- You will always be anonymous. You may contact me from any character you like (though it must be at least 3 months old).
- Under no circumstance will we ever reveal your identity
- Your information will have varying value depending on a few factors (reliability, how up-to-date it is and the quantity of
information) – the pricing section has more information.
- If you provide none of the reliability checks (detailed in pricing section) then we may hold your payment for 1-2 weeks while
the customer verifies information
- If you provide information consistently on the same entity without providing an reliability checks then after a time it will become
a requirement to protect against fraud.
- You may think you can sell bogus information, but there are ways to detect such deceptions.
- Information must be submitted in the correct format:
- Target corporation/alliance: Example Name
- Data type: Personnel (member list)
- Data:
- Name 1 [role 1] (activity 1)
- Name 2 [role 1] (activity 2)
- Data type: Assets (Capitals in construction)
- Capital 1 name [location] (construction status)
And so on, something easy to read and to pull the relevant bits of information from – use common sense!
- Your information will be sold by the data set, the categories above are the preliminary categories and when someone
purchases information they can request a specific data set. You will earn more money the more data sets you provide and the
more complete those data sets are
- Feel free to provide other information, it may form a new data set or could be offered to interested parties separately.
- Keep your data set up-to-date as this will earn you more money and stop a new agent in the same corp from taking over
your data set – read below
- If your data set is (for example) 4 months out of date and a new agent offers the same data set, then you will be contacted to
see if you still wish to maintain it. If not, then the new agent will take over.
- You can be a freelance agent, not tied to a specific corporation but given tasks to infiltrate and provide information on
individuals, corporations and alliances. Simply contact me and let me know and if a suitable job comes up then I'll be in touch.
- Your name is stored separately from the data, so no risk of it being copied and pasted into the data set

The purchaser

Simply, any one can buy any information they ask for. Send an EVE mail to me or contact me directly in-game. State which entity you want information on and from which data sets. I will then be in touch to tell you what information we have, it's quantity and quality and the price. You can then accept or not, if you accept then I will send an EVE mail with that information on it.

There can be some negotiation on price and some factors may influence the price as well, which are detailed in the prices section.

Of course, complete anonymity is assured.
Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-09-02 21:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Prices

Prices are standardised on 2 factors: entity size and difficulty is collecting the data set – each component of the data set is ranked and will contribute to the overall price depending on what you purchase. I won't reveal prices right now as they are still a work in progress and they are liable to change as we get set up.

You pay per data set (and the contents of that data set). Once you have bought it, you are entitled to free updates to that data set for 4 weeks – that means if the agent updates their data set within 4 weeks of your purchase, then that information is sent straight to you at no cost
The base cut for an agent is 20% of the sell price, this can be increased, as detailed below.
The entity size thresholds are currently:
- 2-50
- 50-100
- 100-200
- 200-500
- 500-750
- 750-1000
- 1000+

Factors influencing price:
- Quality/Quanity – If the data set is small or of low quality (such as incomplete) then there will be a reduction in price which will be determined on a case by case basis
- Out-of-date – If a data set is one month out of date then it will lose 25% value, over 2 months it will lose 50% value
- Reliability (Agent) – Two ways of ensuring reliability:
- Character: Using an alt, not associated with the target corp assures your identity is safe but makes it easier to lie.
Therefore, agents who use a character associated with the corp will receive an extra 20% cut of the sell price
- Proof: Taking a screen shot of the data makes it more reliable, is easy to do and is low risk. Providing a screen shot gets you an extra 10% cut of the sell price
- Maximum cut = 50%, minimum = 20%
- Reliability (Buyer)
- Buyers may represent the corp they are buying information from in an attempt to identify what leaks there are. They may also wish to freely distribute the information to undermine this operation – Yes, I thought of these before you did. As with the agent, there are ways to counteract this.
- However, a buyer who uses a character representing a corporation or alliance (thus less likely to be an alt) will get a 20% reduction in costs.

This is a unique service and is of course, untested. Please ask questions as I probably have the answer but just haven't
written it down.


Edit:
As this enterprise will take some time to build up, many people may seek information on entities that we currently don't have in the database. To that end, register your interest in buying a data set and when it becomes available I will provide it at a 50% discount (the agent still gets paid in full).
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-09-03 11:51:16 UTC
How much to buy the names of all characters who provide information to you?

I see what you're trying to do, but I don't believe it's feasible/realistic.
Also 20% to the people who provide the information is a joke. They take all the risk and you take 80%.
A more realistic cut would be 20% to you and 80% to the agent.

I think a better business model would be for you to get multiple accounts and long term infiltrate the large movers and shaker corps within the game. Keep up with the changing map of the game, build credibility and history on your legends, and supplly info directly. You would need several players to put in all that work, it would be a huge long term undertaking.
Also if you could manage it at all, when you got high enough up the chain you'd almost be better off simply doing a massive corp theft than trying to tout information and possibly getting found out and losing the chance.

It almost sounds to me like you enjoy reading about the corp and espionage meta in Eve ( don't we all ), but you want it to come to you instead of you putting in the work and time required to pull one of these off.
You're touting a pipe dream, go out and do it yourself instead.
Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-09-03 16:33:48 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
How much to buy the names of all characters who provide information to you?

I see what you're trying to do, but I don't believe it's feasible/realistic.
Also 20% to the people who provide the information is a joke. They take all the risk and you take 80%.
A more realistic cut would be 20% to you and 80% to the agent.

I think a better business model would be for you to get multiple accounts and long term infiltrate the large movers and shaker corps within the game. Keep up with the changing map of the game, build credibility and history on your legends, and supplly info directly. You would need several players to put in all that work, it would be a huge long term undertaking.
Also if you could manage it at all, when you got high enough up the chain you'd almost be better off simply doing a massive corp theft than trying to tout information and possibly getting found out and losing the chance.

It almost sounds to me like you enjoy reading about the corp and espionage meta in Eve ( don't we all ), but you want it to come to you instead of you putting in the work and time required to pull one of these off.
You're touting a pipe dream, go out and do it yourself instead.


For you, I'll give it to you for free!

Regarding the cut, I take your point. There are two considerations on this 1) that the agent does most of the work and takes all the risk and 2) they can easily lie. 20% is the minimum cut, if you meet the two reliability criteria then it increases to 50% and there is always the possibility for long term, reliable agents to increase that further. 20% is for people who send in unverified information with no guarantee of it's reliability.

Again, I take your point. A long term infiltration with a smash and grab at the end will net me a lot more isk and a lot more fame. But this idea is meant to be a genuine business, a service to be used rather than a destructive force that builds nothing. There are flaws and to get this off the ground will require a lot of work and some luck, but if people invest in it then it can be done, I believe.

I disagree on the final point. Mainly because this isn't a smash and grab. This isn't an infiltration with the aims of making headlines by bringing the corp down. This is about long term agents providing information for others to buy - in theory, we'll never make a headline. I also disagree that my end involves no work: publicity, recruitment, management or personnel, management of information and detecting fraud.

And as always, you don't know until you try.
Barron Hammerstrike
Medusa Nova Mining And Trade
#5 - 2013-09-03 19:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Barron Hammerstrike
virm pasuul wrote:


I think a better business model would be for you to get multiple accounts and long term infiltrate the large movers and shaker corps within the game. Keep up with the changing map of the game, build credibility and history on your legends, and supplly info directly. You would need several players to put in all that work, it would be a huge long term undertaking.
Also if you could manage it at all, when you got high enough up the chain you'd almost be better off simply doing a massive corp theft than trying to tout information and possibly getting found out and losing the chance.



This is actually the better way to go about it. More fun, less work, and better paying. If you want to create a shadowy cabal then gather a couple of friends that will follow the same model. You'd rake in the ISK and maybe even gain a little notoriety.

Good luck nonetheless!
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-09-04 10:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
I hugely enjoy the different metas in Eve,as I imagine most do so I try and be encouraging when someone comes up with a new idea. I just think you are going to find it tough going.

I start with the assertion that it's only worth doing with the big players in Eve. Little fish no-one cares enough to pay for info on, and there's no infamy to be gained from dicking over a little fish no matter how good a hatchet job you do. That way lies a minor thread in the crime and punishment forum forgotten by the next day by the few that even read it.
If you accept that assertion then:

If you take for example the Goons and Test before Test evaporated as an example:
They already have day to day info on each other. Fleet doctrine, FC info, access to opponents comms channels, API keys.
That's already taken care of in the big power blocks internally. Internal control of this gives security and trust. It can of course be abused, but keeping it internal starts it on a higher trust and quality level. No nation on earth sub contracts intelligence gathering to another nation. Co-operation yes but not wholesale.
They already have their own intelligence apparatus in place.

The very best you can hope to do is offer a 3rd party spanner in the works. Being able to provide on demand an incident like when the Test renter alliance faced a major theft of 400Bill and a major fork up of renter sov. That made the headlines, that had a tremendous effect on the victim, massive work had to be done to put sov right, morale of the victim alliance was hugely dented.
To be able to provide that on demand would be worthwhile. I imagine you would be able to charge a ton for that.
Charging the client the value of the isk and assets stolen from the victim as well as keeping everything that was stolen would be easily viable. Maybe even a premium paid on top by the client for raw isk and direct war material - ships modules and ammunition. Its very hard to fight back in a war with no ships or guns and no liquid isk to buy more. Sabotaging build orders of war material results in materials lost, factories still tied up, and no end product, maybe even the blueprints gone.
You can cause massive damage by choosing the right targets, and the pay would be proportional. to damage caused.

The problem - it's not easy getting to that position. It takes time and patience more than anything else. You can't have a dozen alts all doing this at the same time - characters need to be in game building reputation and trust - ofline chars aren't.
All that time and effort - probably years is one shot too. Once you're burnt you're no good anymore ever, especially as a third party spy. That guy in my example would screwed Test is probably ok for a position in goons since he was a goon all along. He was loyal to his cause. As a third party spy you are burnt forever - you have no home to go back to. Biomass, make new alt, start from the beginning all over again.

That's also why your prices are still a joke sorry.
You respond very well to criticism, it reflects very well on you.
Sorry to be a downer, it's just my opinion.
Despite my opinion i do wish you luck and I hope you prove me very wrong. I would love to read of your successes :)

PS Spies don't look like "spies" - Watch the movie Condorman when Crawford gets to help out his CIA buddy and turns up in a trenchcoat with the collar turned up, trilby, and shades. Your avartar reminded me of that :)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#7 - 2013-09-04 11:05:08 UTC
I am interested in seeing how this goes, although I share many of the concerns raised.

Good luck and have fun anyway.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Vi'Telfrys Telgnair
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-09-04 21:00:12 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:

I start with the assertion that it's only worth doing with the big players in Eve. Little fish no-one cares enough to pay for info on, and there's no infamy to be gained from dicking over a little fish no matter how good a hatchet job you do. That way lies a minor thread in the crime and punishment forum forgotten by the next day by the few that even read it.


I agree, 90% of corps are of no interest to those who would pay for information and there is little point in someone in these corps passing on info on the off chance that someone will pay. Though, they could register their interest in passing on info if someone does come asking.

The main aim is of course to have agents operating in larger corps and alliances and I completely agree, it's going to be tough. I am somewhat relying on some people having a bit of faith in the idea and a desire for ISK to give this a chance and get it off the ground.

virm pasuul wrote:

If you take for example the Goons and Test before Test evaporated as an example:
They already have day to day info on each other. Fleet doctrine, FC info, access to opponents comms channels, API keys.
That's already taken care of in the big power blocks internally. Internal control of this gives security and trust. It can of course be abused, but keeping it internal starts it on a higher trust and quality level. No nation on earth sub contracts intelligence gathering to another nation. Co-operation yes but not wholesale.
They already have their own intelligence apparatus in place.


Do we know for sure that all the major alliances have well placed spies in their opponents? Remember, the agents will be mains and won't be splitting their time between their spy alt and their main. It will also be very hard to identify them as they are merely passing on information rather than any direct acts of sabotage. Though, I am sure many alliances have well developed intelligence networks and may have no need of this service - the trick here is to build up reputation and quality.

Two points on this though:
- It isn't just alliances who may want this information, or alliances who will be targets. Merc corps could be a useful target as well as big industrial corps. Smaller corps and mercs may want information on alliance operations to plan raids, attacks and to avoid POS's etc.
- If there are well placed spies in various alliances who feed information back to their parent organisation. What is to stop them from passing the information on to us as well? That way they serve their alliance and can make ISK from selling to third parties - they can do this without telling their own alliance as well and it costs them little extra time. The trick here is recruiting them.

virm pasuul wrote:

The very best you can hope to do is offer a 3rd party spanner in the works. Being able to provide on demand an incident like when the Test renter alliance faced a major theft of 400Bill and a major fork up of renter sov. That made the headlines, that had a tremendous effect on the victim, massive work had to be done to put sov right, morale of the victim alliance was hugely dented.
To be able to provide that on demand would be worthwhile
. Once you're burnt you're no good anymore ever, especially as a third party spy. That guy in my example would screwed Test is probably ok for a position in goons since he was a goon all along. He was loyal to his cause. As a third party spy you are burnt forever - you have no home to go back to. Biomass, make new alt, start from the beginning all over again.


Yeah, this way provides me more ISK, more notoriety and bigger impact. Not to dismiss the point or turn away from what is probably a better course of action, but, it's been done. It works, definitely. But I'm looking to create an actual service that persists, that people know of and use. It's a huge task, but only requires that some people take the gamble and get involved.

virm pasuul wrote:

That's also why your prices are still a joke sorry.


I'm afraid I don't understand this bit. I didn't list any prices yet. Which bits of the pricing strategy do you think won't work?

virm pasuul wrote:

You respond very well to criticism, it reflects very well on you.
Sorry to be a downer, it's just my opinion.
Despite my opinion i do wish you luck and I hope you prove me very wrong. I would love to read of your successes :)

PS Spies don't look like "spies" - Watch the movie Condorman when Crawford gets to help out his CIA buddy and turns up in a trenchcoat with the collar turned up, trilby, and shades. Your avartar reminded me of that :)


Thank you. I certainly welcome the comments, so don't worry about being a downer - how else would anything improve?

Sure, but I'm not an actual spy. I'm a businessman, I look like this to convey the feel and purpose of the corp.



What I will say is this: To provide information costs you nothing and risks so little (provided you trust me, of course!). Sure it will take time, but the potential rewards are large. If you're reading this and belong to a corp or are already a spy in some form, consider sending over some money and living the double life, full of excitement!
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#9 - 2013-09-05 03:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Adoulin
Some pointers for you:

Real 'spai' corps NEVER advertise the fact they are spai corps.

They masquerade as miner/indy carebear corps and do all of their skullduggery on alts; mostly infiltrating various potential targets, generic data collection ('data mining'...heheheh), and checking various killboards/BBS's (public and otherwise....).

If you want to see how its done effectively in the game, just read up on the exploits of the Guiding Hand Social Club, or the Goonie Intelligence Agency....other examples abound but those are the most famous IMO.

TLDR Cloak back up and try again, and once you provide actual good intel to folks word will spread. This can be both a good and bad thing btw......

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-09-06 11:44:21 UTC
Hey there,

So, I have a few questions;
As this enterprise will take some time to build up, many people may seek information on entities that we currently don't have in the database. To that end, register your interest in buying a data set and when it becomes available I will provide it at a 50% discount (the agent still gets paid in full).

Can we at least get an idea of price ranges your are contemplating?
How can I register my interest in buying data?
Is your project moving forward or is it standing still for the moment?

Thanks upfront for your answer.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Calisto Thellere
#11 - 2013-09-06 12:22:27 UTC
LOL good luck getting any credible info/spies on board if all they can get for their efforts is 20% while you take 80%.

You should be taking 10% and 90% to the info giver to be even considered viable.

But, as already been mentioned, the power blocks that would find this stuff usefull already have extensive spy networks internally to get all the info the need. I cant really see this idea working as all it offers is a time saving on doing it yourself.

Good luck though, i think you'll need it!
seany1212
M Y S T
#12 - 2013-09-06 13:14:42 UTC
Calisto Thellere wrote:
LOL good luck getting any credible info/spies on board if all they can get for their efforts is 20% while you take 80%.

You should be taking 10% and 90% to the info giver to be even considered viable.


This so much.

Vi'Telfrys Telgnair wrote:
Regarding the cut, I take your point. There are two considerations on this 1) that the agent does most of the work and takes all the risk and 2) they can easily lie. 20% is the minimum cut, if you meet the two reliability criteria then it increases to 50% and there is always the possibility for long term, reliable agents to increase that further. 20% is for people who send in unverified information with no guarantee of it's reliability.


The agent does ALL the footwork, without it what business do you have? A business that sells intel without intel?

Your second point is their ability to lie, if you can't trust your agents the whole plan falls apart, the only way you could tell whether it was 100% reliable is that if you were doing all the footwork yourself.

So to summarize you're poorly paying the agents that are the key part to your business and you don't trust any and all intel they give you and as a result are paying them as such...

Superb business, Would Recommend A+++++++

Roll