These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Missiles vs Guns - Unbalanced in more than just DPS.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
hudders
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-09-02 06:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hudders
So, I'm not sure if this is a topic that has been brought up before, but it's bugged me for a long time since playing this game.

Each gun type has two guns associated with it.
Projectile --> Auto-cannons / Artillery
Hybrid --> Blaster / Rail
Lazors --> Pulse / Beam

They are categorized into small medium and large. Once you hit level 5, all you need is the specialization at 1 for T2 guns.

However, missiles (long considered far inferior to guns) have extra training for every category.
If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.

However, for medium missile launchers I have to train two skills to 5. Heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. Then specialization in each. Thus doubling the training time.
This becomes especially noticeable once you get to capital ships. A moros for example, trains large hybrid turrets to 5 and then can get capital hybrid turrets. They can then choose to use either capital blasters or rails. However, the Phoenix must train both cruise missiles and torpedoes to 5 in order to be as versatile. Giving it another 20 day or so train time on a ship already classified as "the worst dread."

Overall,
I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not. Perhaps change the category to small missiles, medium missiles and large missiles?


Might just be ramblings, but I'd love to hear some thoughts/input. So... yeah. Bring forth the talking.
Guttri
Mari-Huana
#2 - 2013-09-02 06:41:06 UTC
hudders wrote:

If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.


Wrong. You also need Small Hybrid Turret at 5 and the respective specialization skills at 4.
Comto Aldent
Safe break
#3 - 2013-09-02 06:41:48 UTC
It kind of balances out for higher level missles, since you would need both small and medium specilization for tech II large hybrid turrets, you don't need heavy assault missles for tech II cruise launchers, the downside is training torps and cruise V for tech II respectivly
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2013-09-02 06:45:34 UTC
hudders wrote:
Overall,
I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not.
Because guns are not missiles, and it's not really a matter of balance.

Missiles let you go deep quickly, but are slow when it comes to skill breadth. Guns work the other way around. vOv
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#5 - 2013-09-02 06:52:30 UTC
Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design.

Invalid signature format
hudders
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-09-02 06:54:31 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design.

It's not really a problem. Just a curiosity that I finally decided to quench. I don't care one way or another if the system changes. I already have all gunnery and missile skills at 5.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-09-02 07:39:56 UTC
I can go straight to the torpedo spec skill instead of having to train both the HAM spec and the rocket spec to get there, though?
Dariusz Betonowy
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-09-02 08:34:17 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
I can go straight to the torpedo spec skill instead of having to train both the HAM spec and the rocket spec to get there, though?

Sure, you can train those not even touching any lower t2 variant.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-09-02 08:36:14 UTC
Missiles are actually in a nice place right now. Except for capital missiles. CCP, fix capital missiles.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-09-02 09:23:03 UTC
Guttri wrote:
hudders wrote:

If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.


Wrong. You also need Small Hybrid Turret at 5 and the respective specialization skills at 4.



This, plus some support skills to 5

Then:


hudders wrote:
However, for medium missile launchers I have to train two skills to 5. Heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. Then specialization in each. Thus doubling the training time.


Nope, that's not even what it takes to hybrids lasers or projectiles.

Lets say you want to train specifically for a Tengu, all you need is required support skills to 5 (2) others to 4, then HM 5->spec 4 and HAM 5 -> spec 4

As said above you can't spec all other weapon systems like that, while with missiles you can cover almost all your needs with HM/HAM for pve pvp, the other weapon systems don't let you do so.

If you want large blasters you need to train first small hybrids too 5 then spec 4 med hybrids 5 then spec 4 only then train large hybrids then spec 4 and you still have to train rails specs to 4 if you want to use them.

There are a lot of threads about this with arguments con/pron etc but the only thing it matters is this: with missiles you can skip a lot of training and spec directly to suit your needs because there's no prerequisite of specialization in rockets to train lights and so on, with all other weapons you can't.
In the end while being different training processes they're about equal except you only have one missile type of weapon, with turrets you have 3 (lasers/hybrids/projectiles) and having them all I can tell you train turrets in a real pain in the ass while missiles I have exactly what i need nothing more nothing less.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2013-09-02 09:24:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
hudders wrote:
Overall,
I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not.
Because guns are not missiles, and it's not really a matter of balance.

Missiles let you go deep quickly, but are slow when it comes to skill breadth. Guns work the other way around. vOv

I would dispute that.
To go deep into missiles requires the support skills.
The support skills actually take more training time than the primary skills in most cases.
And to add to that, the gun support skills are worth three times as much as the missile support skills. Well, lets say double at least, as not all the gun support skills are relevant to every weapon.
Meaning while you can argue that the overall SP is the same, the gun support skills support three separate weapon systems overall, while the missile support skills only support one.

I do like the missile layout, but I strongly believe their support skills are overly penalised because they only apply to one weapon system overall, not three, and that they should be made a bit cheaper as a result.
UGWidowmaker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-09-02 09:50:31 UTC
To whine about skill training time... LOL LOL... have this in mind... misils can fire more than 1 damage type.. as amarr i always came up with max 2 damage types. EM and Thermal. no more,,, so just be happy u have more than that! adapt. misils are the easy to train up! as a gun user you need more than one raise to fill the entire spectra of damage!

stop whining.. and use your time training instead..
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-09-02 10:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Nevyn Auscent wrote:



I would dispute that.
To go deep into missiles requires the support skills.



You need either trajectory analysis or sharpshooting to 5 plus spec 4 on each smaller mount a T2 large turret, factor in 6 turrets for all of the races.

Once you train torps say, they work on everything with a launcher slot.

It comes out to someting like 46 days training per large turret type (blallistic, hybrid etc) It is longer than missiles trust me I've done both.
Othran
Route One
#14 - 2013-09-02 11:06:47 UTC
Given the complete lack of knowledge the OP has about the skills he already has, I'd say he needs to l2p his newly bought character before making a complete arse of himself on the forums Lol

If OP didn't buy the character then he has eve-related learning difficulties.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#15 - 2013-09-02 12:00:42 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design.


how cute to assume that all 2006 characters have actually played all the time.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-09-02 12:29:03 UTC
This is a topic that's been discussed before. In depth.

Dodixie > Hek
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-09-02 22:00:34 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:



I would dispute that.
To go deep into missiles requires the support skills.



You need either trajectory analysis or sharpshooting to 5 plus spec 4 on each smaller mount a T2 large turret, factor in 6 turrets for all of the races.

Once you train torps say, they work on everything with a launcher slot.

It comes out to someting like 46 days training per large turret type (blallistic, hybrid etc) It is longer than missiles trust me I've done both.



Well I don't know how to explain this differently, with over 16M SP in turrets I still don't have large energy guns+large pulse&large long range what the frack whatever name, meanwhile with only 8M SP my other character is specifically trained all support missiles skills to 5, HM/AHM specs to 4 and cruiser/torps specs to 4.

How hard it is to train missiles? - I answer you: blahblahblah nothing!! at all, it's a joke !!

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
hudders
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-09-02 23:44:58 UTC
UGWidowmaker wrote:
To whine about skill training time... LOL LOL... have this in mind... misils can fire more than 1 damage type.. as amarr i always came up with max 2 damage types. EM and Thermal. no more,,, so just be happy u have more than that! adapt. misils are the easy to train up! as a gun user you need more than one raise to fill the entire spectra of damage!

stop whining.. and use your time training instead..


I was not whining, I was asking a valid question out of curiosity. I simply wanted to know why they had such a difference in train time as it doesn't seem balanced. It was a question, like I said, I already have all gunnery and missile skills at 5, I don't actually care if they are changed or not.


Before you go making stupid comments, perhaps read the entire post and then learn to express yourself at least semi-intelligently.
hudders
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-09-02 23:48:05 UTC
Othran wrote:
Given the complete lack of knowledge the OP has about the skills he already has, I'd say he needs to l2p his newly bought character before making a complete arse of himself on the forums Lol

If OP didn't buy the character then he has eve-related learning difficulties.


A post that has zero evidence behind it and merely insults the original poster asking a valid question. I made some generalizations, yes, but I am more than aware of how skills work. This is not something I just hurr durr realized, like omg. I've noticed it since about a month into eve, which was long ago, gave it some thought and finally decided to get others input on it. Perhaps even a DEV response.

You on the other hand, are just being an ******* so you look cool on your internet spaceship game.

You're so cool, I wish I was like you.
hudders
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-09-02 23:49:56 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
This is a topic that's been discussed before. In depth.


Thank you for the helpful post. I will read up on this.
12Next page