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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#761 - 2013-09-01 20:54:35 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Taking a significantly elongated route seems like considerable effort to me, especially considering the pay grade.


Freighter pilots charge whatever people are willing to pay. The fact that the pay is so low indicates that it's very safe.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#762 - 2013-09-01 21:02:55 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Well you tell us, you're supposedly an expert on the subject. Tell us all about these people that scan, bump, gank, loot & salvage freighters solo.


Being so obviously wrong makes you pretty incoherent I take it? Don't be flustered, I'm not judging.


I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong, but here you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox, yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this.

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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#763 - 2013-09-01 21:05:31 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox,


They are?

Quote:
yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this.


They are?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#764 - 2013-09-01 21:09:34 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
you are claiming that these tasks are easy to ISbox,


They are?

Quote:
yet you're unable to explain why no one is doing this.


They are?


Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#765 - 2013-09-01 21:18:40 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.


What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself?
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#766 - 2013-09-01 21:32:33 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
I don't actually know how to do what you've asked of me, and therefore cannot explain the process, so I will ask inane questions instead.


You still need to work on being clear about what you're saying. There's no need for deflection here; no one is going to judge you for not knowing something.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#767 - 2013-09-01 21:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.


What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself?

You're basically presenting a circular argument, avoiding providing evidence to back up your statement by going round in circles. (Yes I'm aware that this is a logical fallacy)

In common with Infinity, when someone actually proves you wrong, you change the subject.

Are you two running a book on how long you can keep this going with nonsense arguments and taking it in shifts to do so?
Are you just a troll with nothing better to do?
Do you genuinely believe all the delusional crap you're posting in this thread?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Matari Akiga
Doomheim
#768 - 2013-09-01 21:47:38 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Matari Akiga wrote:
Bonused dual web ship to help me get into warp quicker, a fast high mass battleship like a mach to bump the bumpers, ships scouting ahead and if I am feeling paranoid dual logi support and a smart bombing cruiser with MWD to pop untanked dessi's.


Do you think this is a fair expectation of an already boring profession with a huge amount of collateral and skill investment?

As far as I can figure, freighter income is on par with mining. Splitting mining income 8 ways sounds pretty bad.[quote=Mallak


Sorry to burst your bubble on this I don't do it for profit, I don't make any isk from my hi sec freighter runs and the other players who help me don't make any either, some of us are motivated by things greater than personal gain.

We do what we do for the good of the alliance but the lack of greed also helps avoid full cargo's which is why most people get ganked.

CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.

Improvise, adapt and overcome!
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#769 - 2013-09-01 21:57:52 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Then by all means, show me how easy this is to do.


What is it you think is hard? There being four separate (not time-overlapping but w/e) tasks? I specified four people; perhaps you can do the rest of the math yourself?


You said 4 mid-end PC's, which is not the same thing as 4 people. As for the tasks your assumption of 4 is also incorrect, but as someone with a very limited grasp on the subject of suicide ganking this is to be expected.


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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#770 - 2013-09-01 22:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You said 4 mid-end PC's, which is not the same thing as 4 people.


If you're building a cluster you wouldn't want mid-end PC's (you either go up or down), and I'd personally never use more than one set of inputs so my assumption was four people for four boxes. However, Eve is extremely light on input and I'm pretty sure if you wanted to sit there with four keyboards (maybe an easily accessible input switch) it wouldn't be hard.

Is your question regarding how ISBoxer works or can you really not multi-task something as simple as suicide ganking in Eve? The requirements are so intuitive for me that I wouldn't know where to start.

Quote:
As for the tasks your assumption of 4 is also incorrect


You listed off four; not me. Feel free to list off a couple trivial jobs like suicide log-off timer and scout that don't significantly divide attention.

Matari Akiga wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble on this I don't do it for profit.


I gathered, but I imagine CCP would rather not have the profession ruined for those who do.
Dristan Evrard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#771 - 2013-09-02 03:42:26 UTC
Not that it's ever constructive to post in flame threads...

I think freighters should be given the option to fit some low slot modules, but have their default cargo lowered so that the maximum possible cargo remains the same as now. Then, haulers will have the option to customize their freighter for maximum cargo, or for more tank.

Meanwhile, gankers will have a greater number of variables to assess and more decisions to make, relieving the boredom that they complain so bitterly about. They'll also get the opportunity to laugh at the shitfit freighters they've ganked (hull reppers anyone?).

I see this as a win-win.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#772 - 2013-09-02 03:58:31 UTC
Freighters should be indirectly nerfed by separating the warring empire factions with low sec, and jump Freighters should be hit with a severe jump range nerf or removed so that large nullsec entities have to rely more on local manufacturing and regional markets are more competitive.
Dave Stark
#773 - 2013-09-02 05:26:02 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Freighters should be indirectly nerfed by separating the warring empire factions with low sec, and jump Freighters should be hit with a severe jump range nerf or removed so that large nullsec entities have to rely more on local manufacturing and regional markets are more competitive.


it's a boring and uninteresting change that will simply serve to make eve less interesting.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#774 - 2013-09-02 05:56:36 UTC
The current state of Freighters and Jump Freighters is just fine.

CCP can not fix individual stupidity, ignorance and general idiocy; stop asking them already!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#775 - 2013-09-02 07:39:46 UTC
Dristan Evrard wrote:
Not that it's ever constructive to post in flame threads...

I think freighters should be given the option to fit some low slot modules, but have their default cargo lowered so that the maximum possible cargo remains the same as now. Then, haulers will have the option to customize their freighter for maximum cargo, or for more tank.

Meanwhile, gankers will have a greater number of variables to assess and more decisions to make, relieving the boredom that they complain so bitterly about. They'll also get the opportunity to laugh at the shitfit freighters they've ganked (hull reppers anyone?).

I see this as a win-win.


You just nerfed my freighter and forced me to make twice as many trips no matter how I fit the freighter.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#776 - 2013-09-02 08:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Lucy Hastmena wrote:
Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.
Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5.
17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion.
Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg).
The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.

Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.

Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.


Are you seriously crying that 17 battlecruisers are able to kill a single freighter? How delusional do you have to be to think that is broken or unbalanced. That's fine. A dozen or more combat ships should be able to take down a single industrial ship.

the "isk tank" argument is blatantly invalid
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#777 - 2013-09-02 08:56:37 UTC
Idiots, they're everywhere.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#778 - 2013-09-02 09:28:43 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Lucy Hastmena wrote:
Because of all the small Ship buffs, Freighter and Jump freighter become really easy to gank in the High Sec.
Normally just say, dont carrie that much in a Freighter or Jumpfreighter but that is not the reason for beeing ganked, its just because its so easy. The Price of a Rhea for example is around 6.5 Billions and has around 300k EHP with Jump Freighter Skill Level 5.
17 Brutix kill this Ship without any risk worth around 1 Billion.
Even 25 Catalysts can destroy a Jump freighter in 0.5 Systems (around 560 DPS for 25 Seconds -> 14k+ Dmg *25 = 350k Dmg).
The Price of one Catalyst is around 12 mio full fittet (t2 with dmg rigs). So you have around 300 million loss for a guranteered Jump Freighter Kill a normal Freighter has less than 200k EHP and will be killed more easier.

Additional every ******* ISBoxer user can build up his own ganking squad like nothing. This combination was seen for example in 1.0 Systems with around 20 tornados between Jita and Amarr. Yes it was an ISBoxer, he was really stupid so he tried to smack in local and every of his alts did the same at the same second.

Please give the freighter and Jump Freighter Pilots a chance to survive in High Sec. They should still be killable by suizid gankers, but it must be in a way that the costs to gank these Ships must be the same than the costs of the ganked ship itself.


Are you seriously crying that 17 battlecruisers are able to kill a single freighter? How delusional do you have to be to think that is broken or unbalanced. That's fine. A dozen or more combat ships should be able to take down a single industrial ship.

the "isk tank" argument is blatantly invalid

17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.

Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.

I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#779 - 2013-09-02 09:46:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
17 Battlecruisers is fine imo, that's a large isk investment. 30ish destroyers on the other hand is not fine. That's free ganking.

Having been thinking about it, I think the real issue is destroyers themselves. A destroyer puts close to the same DPS as a cruiser on a target, for 1000% less the price of the hull.

I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.


It's not free ganking. It's thirty ships and pilots. The isk investment in ships and modules isn't that high, but the effort required to get that many pilots coordinated is considerable. Are you literally saying 30 pilots shouldn't be able to kill one? Think about how dumb dumb dumb that is for a second.

The material price of the destroyers is irrelevant, because isk tanking is an invalid concept. The idea that "my ship + it's cargo cost 10bn, therefore it must cost someone else equal or greater than 10bn to destroy it" is simply ridiculous. That's not how it works, it's a hopelessly stupid idea conceived by minds of children. There are thirty of them, and one of you. It doesn't matter if their thirty ships only cost 2-4m each, there's thirty of them. Against one of you.

Their role is a combat ship that specializes against frigates, but having a specialty does not mean they shouldn't be able to do things outside that specialty.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#780 - 2013-09-02 09:47:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


I think this is where the problem lies. If they are supposed to kill frigates then make them frigate killers, not freighter killers.




DPS is DPS, regardless of the source. You can gank a freighter with a fleet of noobships, if you want. And they cost exactly nothing.