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[Odyssey 1.1] Nosferatu mechanic change

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Author
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#641 - 2013-08-26 12:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Akimo Heth
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Actually it's a huge deal when you're fighting something bigger. This change means the difference between your NOS working or not working at all.

As mentioned, a "Big Deal" change does not need to be very big at all before NOS becomes an overwhelmingly powerful weapons system.

The fact that it's not on every ship but it is on some means it is in some way balanced already. If it was on every single ship then this would mean that its power and utility exceeded every other alternative module choice. This would indicate that it was too powerful.

We have a choice in these forums. We can either whine that things aren't "right", or we can state that we think we have a better proposal and then immediately lay it out, backed up with mathematics and some examples to illustrate the point.

Demands to "buff nosferatu" have no meaning, because there is no specific request.

Claims that "nosferatu sucks" also have no meaning.

I demonstrated an example a few posts back - the effect of current NOS on a medium dual-rep armour ship. It proposes that one NOS module can mean up to a 30% advantage in a 1:1.

The devs have to work with real numbers and their consequences on the game. We can either create noise or we can give them guidance through constructive, informed criticism and suggestion.




Please read the rest of the thread, there have been at least a half a dozen better proposed changes throughout backed up by real numbers (for example fitting costs versus neuts, cycle times, drain amounts, etc). Your example does not change very much from the current version of NOS which is the problem. Your duel-rep ship will pretty much always be at a % deficiency from the get-go versus any larger platform and should already be using a NOS or even better a cap boosters which would provide way more cap earlier in the fight (don't have to be within 12.5k) and allow you to use a neut instead.

Nobody is saying the change is zero or negative, just that it is a miniscule change for NOS's which have major deficiencies in usefulness when compared to neuts and the proposed change is not nearly enough. It currently is not balanced as you put it and the dev's have said as much, their proposed changes does little else except nerf NOS further on larger platforms when that is where they were used the least already.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#642 - 2013-08-26 17:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Akimo Heth wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Actually it's a huge deal when you're fighting something bigger. This change means the difference between your NOS working or not working at all.

As mentioned, a "Big Deal" change does not need to be very big at all before NOS becomes an overwhelmingly powerful weapons system.

The fact that it's not on every ship but it is on some means it is in some way balanced already. If it was on every single ship then this would mean that its power and utility exceeded every other alternative module choice. This would indicate that it was too powerful.

We have a choice in these forums. We can either whine that things aren't "right", or we can state that we think we have a better proposal and then immediately lay it out, backed up with mathematics and some examples to illustrate the point.

Demands to "buff nosferatu" have no meaning, because there is no specific request.

Claims that "nosferatu sucks" also have no meaning.

I demonstrated an example a few posts back - the effect of current NOS on a medium dual-rep armour ship. It proposes that one NOS module can mean up to a 30% advantage in a 1:1.

The devs have to work with real numbers and their consequences on the game. We can either create noise or we can give them guidance through constructive, informed criticism and suggestion.




Please read the rest of the thread, there have been at least a half a dozen better proposed changes throughout backed up by real numbers (for example fitting costs versus neuts, cycle times, drain amounts, etc). Your example does not change very much from the current version of NOS which is the problem. Your duel-rep ship will pretty much always be at a % deficiency from the get-go versus any larger platform and should already be using a NOS or even better a cap boosters which would provide way more cap earlier in the fight (don't have to be within 12.5k) and allow you to use a neut instead.

Nobody is saying the change is zero or negative, just that it is a miniscule change for NOS's which have major deficiencies in usefulness when compared to neuts and the proposed change is not nearly enough. It currently is not balanced as you put it and the dev's have said as much, their proposed changes does little else except nerf NOS further on larger platforms when that is where they were used the least already.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this is or should necessarily be the only step taken with NOS... he is simply pointing out that blanket changes like many of those proposed in this thread would easily (and instantly) drive NOS right back into being an over powered module again.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#643 - 2013-08-26 17:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Gypsio III wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tibus Bravour wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
At present, we can use NOS to keep tackle/tank running in the face of a larger opponent neuting us


Exactly how much do you think NOS's drain? It's barely enough to keep tackle going under neuting pressure, forget about tank. The scaling from small -> heavy NOS is even worse with heavy's draining barely enough to keep a single Amarr turret running.


A nosferatu does not drain enough to fuel a *full* tank, no. That would be epically overpowered. It would be making your opponent pay the full cost of healing you. Maintaining your own tank is *your* cost, so take some cap boosters.

But the nosferatu does *help* with the tank, and it does make your opponent pay *some* of the cost. Certainly enough to run your tackle, and more with medium and large modules.

I can tell you exactly how much a NOS drains, as it's published in the item description and on EFT, EveHQ etc so please don't get stroppy with me sonny.

A medium nosferatu II drains 6Gj of cap per second. This is almost exactly 30% of the cost of running a medium armour repairer II with maxed skills and no nanobot accelerators.

So assuming you are dual-repped, the presence of that one module is giving you 15% more effective hitpoints over the course of a fight (roughly) and crucially *removing* 15% of your opponent's effecitve hitpoints (if he's dual-repped too).

That gives you, for the same hull type, a 30% advantage. Or in other words, your opponent must be doing 30% more damage than you in order to win.

I'll take that 30% every time thanks. It's better than an extra low slot.

Of course for this mechanic to work, you just need to keep your cap a little bit below your opponents. That requires some judgement and skill. Welcome to Eve.

Numbers do not lie, and forum dwellers do not deliberately lie, but they sometimes make claims without putting in the work prior...

See you on the battlefield!


I wouldn't waste your time. I already ran the numbers by them, and was told that despite the numbers the new mechanic didn't change anything. Big smileBig smileBig smile


Because everything described in the quoted post already happens. Anyone using a cap-heavy tank like that should already have been using a Nos. Straight

Simply changing the activation threshold against some ships really isn't that big a deal.

I disagree, it is a big deal and every change that promotes active tanking makes it even more significant. It is far easier to stay under a larger vessels raw cap amount than it is to stay under his relative percentage of cap.

This fact is still relevant.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#644 - 2013-08-26 17:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
It will barely keep a 1 MN Afterbuner II running but not a MWD, though depending on how the cycle times line up the AB may drop for a non-trivial amount of time. This system didn't change with the proposed fix.

The cycle time on a small NOS is 3 seconds. Meaning that the longest you might run dry is a second or two... meaning yes, you still have to pay attention to what you are doing. Smile

Obviously if you are trying to tackle using just a MWD you need to plan appropriately... although this is rarely a good idea if you are using a Scram. People staying at range with a Disruptor will be out of range to use either NOS or Neut and are not relevant to this discussion.

Again, it is far easier to be under the raw cap amount of a larger target than it is to stay under the percentage amount of cap your target has. That difference becomes dramatically more significant the more difference there is in size between you and your target. Even more so if the smaller vessel is using cap boosters as well.

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#645 - 2013-08-26 22:49:19 UTC
And yet again we just come back to the idea of what this additional cap allows you to do, or what the additional drain upon the target larger ship prevents it from doing, and whether it is worth dropping a neut or weapon for it.

It makes no difference to running tackle because Nos can already run tackle. I think the best idea here is to assist the running of a MAAR. (I'm ignoring SAARs here because I think we're in general agreement re. frigates)

However, any ship fitting a MAAR will also fit an injector, because otherwise a neut will cripple it. The Nos therefore works with the injector to extend the cap life of the cruiser. However, a MAAR takes 160 cap for 1280 cap per reload. This level of cap expenditure is readily manageable using the cap boosters without the Nos. Which kinda suggests that you're better off sticking with the neut...

Having said all that, there is a niche to do with extended roams in hostile space where you can't rely on cap boosters being available. But honestly, this seems quite niche.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2013-08-28 23:32:51 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
And yet again we just come back to the idea of what this additional cap allows you to do, or what the additional drain upon the target larger ship prevents it from doing, and whether it is worth dropping a neut or weapon for it.

It makes no difference to running tackle because Nos can already run tackle. I think the best idea here is to assist the running of a MAAR. (I'm ignoring SAARs here because I think we're in general agreement re. frigates)

However, any ship fitting a MAAR will also fit an injector, because otherwise a neut will cripple it. The Nos therefore works with the injector to extend the cap life of the cruiser. However, a MAAR takes 160 cap for 1280 cap per reload. This level of cap expenditure is readily manageable using the cap boosters without the Nos. Which kinda suggests that you're better off sticking with the neut...

Having said all that, there is a niche to do with extended roams in hostile space where you can't rely on cap boosters being available. But honestly, this seems quite niche.


A single medium cap booster with 800s will not run dual overheated armour tank + hybrid guns + tackle + a reactive hardener. It certainly won't run all that plus a medium neutraliser. It becomes possible with a medium NOS.

This has worked well for me on sisi with the brutix. I guess there's no reason it won't also work in a myrmidon, or any other armour tanker with a free high slot.

I have also used it to good effect with an unusual dual-rep navy vexor fit. if you fit small blasters you can get 2 medium NOS on there. It works *really well*, being able to solo bhaalgorns and machariels (with heavy neut) provided you get in close *fast*.

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#647 - 2013-08-29 10:54:30 UTC
Nice niche. :thumbup:
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#648 - 2013-08-29 15:08:33 UTC
Idea: combine drain as percentage or absolute, i mant to work either way. I think I could like it more, at least it won't hurt anyone who uses them now and will bring more use for those who don't.
ArcticPrism
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2013-08-29 19:18:21 UTC
Reducing the fitting of small nos would be helpful. All small nos cost 15cpu. That's at least a 50% increase over any neut. T2 nos is 10pg, 9 for meta 4. Neut is 9 and 8.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#650 - 2013-08-30 03:37:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Because that makes it universally better than neuts and extremely powerful for small and large ships alike.

The eternal draining of the old NOS was just one part of the problem, even with your proposed change you'd essentially be getting all the power of a neut while usually gaining cap instead of losing it.


I didn't read replies after this but the obvious question at this point is why have an activation cost for the module?

If you are trying to make it a succor module that is about feeding your own ship you could give it a percentage of target NOS effect and it wouldn't be a crippler module.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#651 - 2013-08-30 14:26:39 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I don't care what you do with NOS as long as you keep it from draining ships empty. We had that at one point and it was terrible. Removing that ability from NOSs was a great improvement to the game overall. A defensive module against oversized neuting sounds like a solid role for it. If you're going to adjust them, adjust them with that goal in mind instead of making it another neut-light.


Technically with this change you could cap out a target using NOS. Your ship would have to be at 0 some or most of the time (IE being neuted by a BS you're fighting against), so it would be very inconsistent, but if the battle lasted long enough, you could slowly chip your target down to your cap level.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#652 - 2013-08-30 14:34:51 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I don't care what you do with NOS as long as you keep it from draining ships empty. We had that at one point and it was terrible. Removing that ability from NOSs was a great improvement to the game overall. A defensive module against oversized neuting sounds like a solid role for it. If you're going to adjust them, adjust them with that goal in mind instead of making it another neut-light.


Technically with this change you could cap out a target using NOS. Your ship would have to be at 0 some or most of the time (IE being neuted by a BS you're fighting against), so it would be very inconsistent, but if the battle lasted long enough, you could slowly chip your target down to your cap level.


This was already possible.
Vultre9
Tweety Birds of Terror
#653 - 2013-08-30 16:09:34 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Currently NPC's for NOS targeting is good to OK... I hope that doesn't change else my Incursion Bhaal with double 39km range NOS will no longer be CAP stable Oops

Do NPC's cap change/deleplete like pilots? It seems different especially since you can't NEUT NPC's effectively


You know what also makes you cap stable? Nightmare cap chains :)
Merovingio75
League of xX420BLAZEITSWAGGOTXx.
Nulli Secunda
#654 - 2013-08-31 15:17:12 UTC
SIR PRIME wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I have another balance announcement for our Odyssey 1.1 release to share: we are going to make NOS good again.

This means if you turn on your NOS, and you have 50 cap in your cap pool, and your opponent has 100, the NOS works regardless of relative % cap.



Doesn't this make nos totally pointless in a ship with a large base cap pool as odds are you'll always have more than your opponent in a ship with a smaller pool?


Not really. You will use a NEUT in that case and i you go at very low cap you can drain back some cap in your ship using a NOS and not ur cap boosters.
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
#655 - 2013-09-01 05:14:38 UTC
This is not just a change to the mechanic, this is a NERF to large, expensive nosferatus and another insult to long time mission runners who use them to help maintain cap under duress.
I hate you and your kind and if I ever catch you in your captains quarters in a station, I'm going to blow your head off.
Big smile
Thanks.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#656 - 2013-09-01 15:06:37 UTC
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar wrote:
This is not just a change to the mechanic, this is a NERF to large, expensive nosferatus and another insult to long time mission runners who use them to help maintain cap under duress.
I hate you and your kind and if I ever catch you in your captains quarters in a station, I'm going to blow your head off.
Big smile
Thanks.


While I agree it is an unwarranted nerf to large NOS's traded for a VERY niche boost to small NOS usage, they did come out an say earlier in the thread that the PvE usages of NOS's will not change. While I believe duel systems of operation for PvE and PvP is a signal that the base mechanic is broken, at least they aren't nerfing PvE NOS's for mission runners.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#657 - 2013-09-01 15:14:55 UTC
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
#658 - 2013-09-01 20:35:39 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:

at least they aren't nerfing PvE NOS's for mission runners.

Thanks, I hadn't read that.
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#659 - 2013-09-02 00:04:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#660 - 2013-09-02 00:10:01 UTC
Samas Sarum wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It's only a nerf for large NOS in the corner case that you are fighting a smaller target and his capacitor is lower than yours but represents a higher percentage of his total cap size.

Come come now Mr Bond...


Umm what? Its a nerf in that a 250 million ISK deadspace large NOS will never be able to drain a single GJ from a cruiser or frigate pretty much ever but a 10k small NOS can drain all day long on said BS. You may agree with such a nerf but the large NOS's were already the least used category of NOS's so I'd rather they fix one of a half dozen of issues with them first before making such a large nerf.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that I hypothetically agree to see the situation you describe as undesirable.

What would be your proposal for correcting this perceived imbalance?

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