Intergalactic Summit

I would not deny that fact. However, I am open enough to admit that an immigrant, any immigrant, to the State should seek to speak the language and understand the language of the State if they desire employment in the State. I will be honest in that I find that to be an essential discrimination to be made as a Caldari. I for one have no desire to try and market a, "perfect system" and then issue denials when flaws in the system are illustrated.

It might make me an apologist at best or a hypocrite at worst.

Veik,

This is an interesting diversion from the main intent of the thread.

Your "point of idle curiosity" is a complex issue. Perhaps too complex to entertain any considered debate on here without seeing the entire discussion descending to the level of the lowest common denominator. If you agree I am more than happy to shift this conversation with you to your corporation's public channel or other more civil venues.


I am undecided on whether your understanding of the Federation and its government is as naive as you are projecting or whether you are presenting misinformation under the guise of ignorance.

The Federation is certainly not as static as you imply in either case.

New member-states arise on a regular basis as worlds within Federal borders are colonised, terraformed and settled. Tens of thousands of these member-states currently exist and numbers continue to increase. All of this is documented in the public domain.

There are several planets in Sinq Laison alone which have been wholly colonised by Matari immigrants. States with a majority or total Matari demographic have subsequently arisen from these colony worlds to apply for and be granted membership to the Federation. Alternatively, these colonies can remain non-members of the Federation if that is their desire. Again, this is all verifiable through public domain.

Outside of these Matari-majority colonies and member states, there is no restriction on religious practise, traditions and culture or freedom of association with others.

This definitively answers your inquiry on whether there is 'anywhere' in Federation space where Matari immigrants can self-determine their futures while protecting and maintaining their traditions and cultures.


We have already established the Matari also have these worlds, states and colonies.

Who in your opinion is 'the majority' in the Federation?

Citizens identifying as 'Matari' comprise 30% of the total Federal population.

So-called 'ethnic' Gallenteans comprise 30-35% of the population. That includes anyone who can trace genealogy back to Gallente Prime. It also includes anyone else who wants to 'identify' as 'Gallente' - a decision which can be based on their current member-state and residence, their alma mater, their current employer or even such nebulous concepts as how they feel about it at that particular time of day. The concept of a 'true' ethnic Gallente bloc acting as a homogenous socio-political entity, as you imply, is unlikely. The truth is that most who now identify as Gallente carry the appearances, traits, practises, cultures and concerns of multiple other segments of Federal society with them.

Who then - the Intaki? By your own words, a Federal culture with enough representation to secure "political power and ability to maintain their own separate and distinct cultures", correct? The Intaki population is estimated at 20% of the population spread across Federal space with majority centres in the Placid region and Luminaire. That puts them behind the Matari immigrant population in the majority numbers game.

The Mannar (at 10-15%) and Jin-Mei (~5%) also, as per you, are capable of maintaining their culture and traditions separate from the Federation. Neither has anything approaching the same representation as the Matari do, however.

The difference between the cultures you listed and Matari in the Federation does not appear to be the absence of colonies or opportunity. Nor does it seem to be lack of a majority and the political voice that can be shaped into. If anything the Matari in Federal space are better situated than others in many of these respects. Perhaps then it is the fact they are immigrants and relatively new ones, albeit now into their fourth or fifth generation, still seeking to define their place in a new world order?

I felt your hypothetical was poorly framed. It was there to present only the most extreme options that would best support your intent rather than serving to catalyse a dialogue based on a wider, more realised understanding of the situation.

To that effect, I would point out that public-access data exists demonstrating citizens of Matari origins working in all sectors, professions and fields of employment across the Federation. They occupy positions in every measurable wealth bracket. They are as diverse in these metrics as in any other. Stereotypes, where they exist, are the stereotypes of the wider cluster with as many exceptions as there are examples of them. The image of Matari immigrants universally confined to "colonial industrial ghettos" is just that - an image crafted as convenient propaganda, perpetuated by minds too narrow to conceive of anything beyond their own agenda.

There are certainly cultural tensions within the Federation - no society that projects the diversity it does could exist in their absence. My position is similar to Inhonores: elements within society, the media and faction-loyal propaganda mouthpieces amongst them, inflate and inflame these tensions beyond reason and factual basis purely to suit their own self-serving agendas.

Actually, I do have a pertinent question. I hear quite a bit about how Matari in the Minmatar Republic feel about the Gallente Federation. I have also heard about how the Matari in the Gallente Federation feel about the Gallente Federation.

How do the Matari in the Republic feel about the Matari in the Federation and vice versa?

You really think that? All minmatar are part of some big happy family?

And all Caldari are part of the Glorious State and live according to Heiian...

I would like to respectfully submit, strictly personally, that Mr Augustus Inhonores should consider that he is in a position of inexperience.

Those who have not yet felt the sting of overt racism, in my experience, seem to be the first to call for everyone to shed their identity in favor of a new one, i.e. "We're not ethnic Gallente, or Sebiestor. We're human."

This concept is very palatable but flawed because, there are people in every corner of the cluster, even the federation, who see a race and nothing else.

Noble ideal indeed, but I humbly suggest the Director General overestimates and underestimates.

Big happy family, no. One people, absolutely. It has been to our fault before that the Matari consider every Matari one of their own. It is the basis of our society: family, clan, tribe, Matar, Human.

There is a Brutor saying from before the Day of Darkness,
"Under the skies, under the heavens, we are but one family."

Of course it originated with the meaning that all people, all of humanity was one singular family, a more different way to look at the fact that we are all we have in the cold. That we all are Human.Over the years and through wars and politics the phrase is used nowadays more in reference to Matar than anything else which is a sadness but a practical one.

"Even those exiled for their crimes deserve the protection of the Tribes and the Spirits"

That is a more modern extension of the same philosophy but it is also said that you should consider every man your brother and every woman your sister when you decide how to treat people.

I don't think the sentiment is as strongly or universally held as you think, Mr Darkefyre - but still, this has been a very educational thread. I think I'd have to add my voice to Gesakaarin-haani's in support of a strong border and very limited immigration. If you can't trust someone's loyalties, you cannot let them into your house.

Most have chosen to live in the Federation? Pilot Fredbug, I feel that you're not looking at the larger picture and buying into the gross stereotypes about conditions in the Republic.

There are many factors as to why Matari are so prevalent in your nation. Many, like myself, were adopted by Gallenteans who made their homes in the Federation. It would therefore be reasonable that they'd return to raise their children in the Fed. These Matari, knowing no other home or culture besides the Fed, remain to have families of their own and so on. There are many Matari families that I know personally who have been living in and around Caille for generations. Others were freed from servitude via various means by Gallenteans who likewise brought the newly freed back to their home worlds in the Fed. None of these people chose to live in Gallente space.

These are two examples that quickly came to mind. I freely admit that conditions in the Republic aren't what we would like. Making matters worse is the fact that untold amounts of money that could have been used to provide needed services and build infrastructure was secretly diverted to military adventurism. However, we are constantly working to raise living standards for all people in the Republic. As the youngest of the great empires we have a great deal of "catching up" to do. Also consider that while overall conditions in highly developed worlds in the Federation are better than the Republic, that there are still many millions of people, Minmatar and others, who live in abject poverty particularly in under developed systems.

The fact of the matter is that it's simply not true that the Federation is the utopian, shining of beacon of hope that many like to portray nor is the Republic a nation filled with hovels and slums where people die regularly for lack of basic necessities. If this were the case there would be a mass migration from our nation to yours, which is not happening.

The cries of sensational journalistic practices aimed at The Scope for their expose of the festering prejudice that has taken root in many parts of the Federation could not be possibly more inaccurate. This is yet another example of powerful interests using proxy unknown spokes people to blame the messenger for delivering uncomfortable facts.

Being born Gallente of Minmatar heritage I can tell you the prejudice does exist, those wishing to deny it are truly seeking to expand and perpetuate it, which is a disservice to the Gallente Federation and all it stands for.

We in the Gallente Federation need to take a long sober look at the reality of prejudice and how poorly it matches with our core beliefs as citizens of the Federation.

We are Gallente, let's not hide from the ugly truths, let's work shoulder to shoulder to guarantee the justice & equality of opportunity everyone in the Gallente Federation has a right to!

That's because it largely already happened, and high volume migration still occurs in waves. This is why ethnic Matari make up a third of the Federation's population, and comparatively there's not a huge difference between the numbers of Matari in the Federation and those living in the Republic.

These demographics are a matter of public record, information that is freely availible. People didn't fall into place like this because do-gooder Gallentean couples were snatching Matari orphans, or because people were freed from slavery by the Federation and then inexplicably given no option by their liberators but to settle in the Federation.

It happened because people looked around and saw a more comfortable life in the developed Federation than was possible if they'd stuck around to build a developing Republic from scratch. This happened generations ago, and still happens to this day.

I'm not sure how somebody with your background can subscribe to such a odd 'revised' account of our shared history.

For the record - no, I don't buy into the negative stereotypes of the Republic with slums, hovels, and bleak endless poverty. Yes, some do, and frankly they're free to indulge their ignorance. It means more more opportunity and ISK for the rest of us that recognise the potential return on investments inside the Republic. That isn't, and never has to be, a zero sum game.

I'd like to ask you though, why do you so freely buy into negative stereotypes of the Federation? I'm interested to know who exactly has been telling you that we're a 'Utopia'? Because the Federation I'm from certainly isn't a Utopia. I know it isn't perfect, and I've never heard anyone I know claim it's perfect, either. That's not what it's about at all - it's about seeing room for improvement and striving to be better.