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A Real Criticism of CCP

Author
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-08-31 13:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
That would not happen because sociopathic "tear collectors" would have to think twice about causing RL suffer to a fellow player through their actions ingame.
And if you actually knew any of these people
you'd realize that these guys actually are normal.

They don't mistake a game for reality and they don't wish you or your family death
because they've lost stupid space pixels.

Unlike carebears who only care about themselves and their bloated egos,
most people who like to blow things up and interact with others
understand that it's a game !

Look up what a "sociopath" is, before you even start talking about it.



And finally i get it. It's almost september and the idiots are back from their holidays ...
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#82 - 2013-08-31 13:54:21 UTC
The OP actually makes a valid point, and that fact scares me.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.

Akemi Kashada
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-08-31 14:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Akemi Kashada
Someone rose the multiboxing argument, which is a feeble try to diminish industrial pilots, the ones using multiboxing the most. (Yes, I do. And I do it to the extreme. I have 9 accounts I log everyday and at once.)

- From the third part point of view, how different it is to have one person with multiple chars and multiple people with one char ? For the industrialist point of view is one person mining or manufacturing operation that equals several human players with one account, but it is only hurtful to the ego. To the game itself it is the same. For the pvp players it has to distinct reasons: For the good pvp player it is just easier to counter as one person with multiple chars cant be as good as multiple people with one char. For the ganker scum preying on the new or less combative player, it is harder not because it is multiple chars, but people used to control multiple chars are able to be better than someone who stay in ganking the weaker in combat, probably because it is someone who cant make decent combats.

- From the New Eden as a whole point of view, multiboxers are neglectible as a class, because it only tweak CCP statistics over number of players or concurrent players, but besides that, multiboxers have much less impact than the same number of organized chars from multiple people.

What hurts people is that multiboxers:

- Earn more ISK than non-multiboxers
- Can pay multiple subscriptions and/or earn ISK enough to support multiple accounts
- Have more time, money and enjoyment in playing EVE

Multiboxing criticism is just born from hurt prides over legitimate reasoning.

From the comments on my previous posts:

- EVE market is not player driven indeed. You are talking about prices and conditions, that is not "drive" the market. It is simply one part of market aspect. A player driven market would be were EVERYTHING is player made, which is implied by EVE ads but not true. There are TONS of things that players make, but if they didnt, you would still be able to buy them in the market, receive from missions or buy from NPCs. And still, if CCP CAN control, it is not player driven, even if they dont.

- When I said about what we want is not safer conditions for industrialists, you forgot to read the whole sentence, in which I say, I want harsher conditions for everybody. It is easy to be a ganker, because gankers can do whatever they want, run some errands and go back to exactly the same point they were before such acts. You will never be so punished by your acts that you will never be able to return to the state you were before what you did. On the other hand, you can inflict with such acts so much loss to a player that this player will never be able to return to the state he/she was before suffering said aggression. Even if it is possible, it is very harder or more expensive to get some ships, some cargo or some skills preserved or replaced than to rise your security status and standings. That is what I see in the OP post and what I agree: Unlawful acts in hisec should be possible to dig a hole so deep into criminality that at some point there is no turning back, or a painful and difficult turn back.

- When I say "industrialist only" I still talking about CCP ads and promises. It is clearly stated that you can be only an industrialist in eve ads and websites. It is clearly stated in EVE enthusiastic texts that you can be a industrialist/trader and make market wars to the same extent real wars can be merciless. But you cant. And for the reason I stated in the first item of this list: Market is not player driven. CCP does not control what players do, but you have NPC corps selling, giving and rewarding, which is more than enough to invalidate the idea that the market is player driven.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-08-31 14:39:01 UTC
NPC corps sell ships for isk? Perhaps you'd like to give examples.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#85 - 2013-08-31 15:06:03 UTC
FWI must be shooting up recently in CCP headquarters...
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#86 - 2013-08-31 15:21:21 UTC
An idea for a better war dec system

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#87 - 2013-08-31 15:25:56 UTC
Renault T'Bonin wrote:
Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.



I make of it that anything you say is likely irrelevant to anything meaningful, and so I shouldn't read any further.

Thanks for the warning, and a big +1 for not wasting my valuable forum time!
Akemi Kashada
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-08-31 15:30:52 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
NPC corps sell ships for isk? Perhaps you'd like to give examples.


I said sell, give and/or reward lots of things. But I didnt say "for ISK". But yeah, there are things they sell for LP and ISK, once bought can be traded or used to build or reprocess tradeable goods, injecting in the market something that isnt player made, implementing an indirect price control over everything that can be made from and with what is made avaliable by them.

This issue about market control and non player driven economy is already into account many other topics like:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=242528

Which is one of the issues contributing to the discrepancy of what CCP texts about EVE say and what it is done.

And it is related to the topic because this fact submits the industrialists to a place where, as stated, you cannot be "industrialist only" where as you can be a ganker only and have nothing to lose by ganking in hisec the said industrialists.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#89 - 2013-08-31 15:34:46 UTC
To the OP:

How about we take up arms in a war game?

Beyond that, how about we mine aligned instead of aligning to whine?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-08-31 15:40:23 UTC
Akemi Kashada wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
NPC corps sell ships for isk? Perhaps you'd like to give examples.


I said sell, give and/or reward lots of things. But I didnt say "for ISK". But yeah, there are things they sell for LP and ISK, once bought can be traded or used to build or reprocess tradeable goods, injecting in the market something that isnt player made, implementing an indirect price control over everything that can be made from and with what is made avaliable by them.

This issue about market control and non player driven economy is already into account many other topics like:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=242528

Which is one of the issues contributing to the discrepancy of what CCP texts about EVE say and what it is done.

And it is related to the topic because this fact submits the industrialists to a place where, as stated, you cannot be "industrialist only" where as you can be a ganker only and have nothing to lose by ganking in hisec the said industrialists.


Except that the LP stores don't actually do that, they let you get a faction ship in exchange for lp/isk/chips and the T1 equivalent. You can buy BPCs of faction ships, but that's not really different from the NPC sell orders of BPOs. You can't be a "pure ganker" in the way that you describe because you either need ships or minerals in order to have ganking ships. You can however be a "pure industrialist" if you factor ganks and such into your cost of doing business or you just hire mercenaries.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#91 - 2013-08-31 15:50:46 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
That would not happen because sociopathic "tear collectors" would have to think twice about causing RL suffer to a fellow player through their actions ingame.
And if you actually knew any of these people
you'd realize that these guys actually are normal.

They don't mistake a game for reality and they don't wish you or your family death
because they've lost stupid space pixels.

Unlike carebears who only care about themselves and their bloated egos,
most people who like to blow things up and interact with others
understand that it's a game !

Look up what a "sociopath" is, before you even start talking about it.



And finally i get it. It's almost september and the idiots are back from their holidays ...


If it was only a game, tears would not matter. They matter precisely because it's not a just a game.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Akemi Kashada
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-08-31 16:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Akemi Kashada
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Akemi Kashada wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
NPC corps sell ships for isk? Perhaps you'd like to give examples.


I said sell, give and/or reward lots of things. But I didnt say "for ISK". But yeah, there are things they sell for LP and ISK, once bought can be traded or used to build or reprocess tradeable goods, injecting in the market something that isnt player made, implementing an indirect price control over everything that can be made from and with what is made avaliable by them.

This issue about market control and non player driven economy is already into account many other topics like:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=242528

Which is one of the issues contributing to the discrepancy of what CCP texts about EVE say and what it is done.

And it is related to the topic because this fact submits the industrialists to a place where, as stated, you cannot be "industrialist only" where as you can be a ganker only and have nothing to lose by ganking in hisec the said industrialists.


Except that the LP stores don't actually do that, they let you get a faction ship in exchange for lp/isk/chips and the T1 equivalent. You can buy BPCs of faction ships, but that's not really different from the NPC sell orders of BPOs. You can't be a "pure ganker" in the way that you describe because you either need ships or minerals in order to have ganking ships. You can however be a "pure industrialist" if you factor ganks and such into your cost of doing business or you just hire mercenaries.


Categorical thinking is a nice weapon of mass destruction of information.

Two things: LP still a kind of currency and a measure of value. And you can blind youself as much as you want, people take that into account in estabilishing prices. I do that, everyone does that to earn ISK. There is a point where you cant rise prices of similar itens or products they reprocess into, because it gets easier to get the LP to buy them from NPCs.

Second, and more obscured it seems, you CAN sell or buy for any price you want, but this is not drive the market. If you have NPCs selling something that isnt player made, that can in turn be used to create trade itens, sold or reprocessed, and it has a fixed value and infinite supply, you are taking away the ability of players to define its supply and price as a whole in the player base. If you can still acquire those itens without any player making them or selling them in the first place, you have non player controlled market.

And you can have alts to get LP for you and run missions to get up to cruisers in missions. That still NPCs giving things that can be sold, reprocessed or used in otherwise non player driven supply satisfying a demand, which in turn makes a factor of indirect control of the market. Still players cant decide what is sold and for how much 100% of the times, rendering the market not 100% player driven.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#93 - 2013-08-31 16:43:05 UTC
Akemi Kashada wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Akemi Kashada wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
NPC corps sell ships for isk? Perhaps you'd like to give examples.


I said sell, give and/or reward lots of things. But I didnt say "for ISK". But yeah, there are things they sell for LP and ISK, once bought can be traded or used to build or reprocess tradeable goods, injecting in the market something that isnt player made, implementing an indirect price control over everything that can be made from and with what is made avaliable by them.

This issue about market control and non player driven economy is already into account many other topics like:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=242528

Which is one of the issues contributing to the discrepancy of what CCP texts about EVE say and what it is done.

And it is related to the topic because this fact submits the industrialists to a place where, as stated, you cannot be "industrialist only" where as you can be a ganker only and have nothing to lose by ganking in hisec the said industrialists.


Except that the LP stores don't actually do that, they let you get a faction ship in exchange for lp/isk/chips and the T1 equivalent. You can buy BPCs of faction ships, but that's not really different from the NPC sell orders of BPOs. You can't be a "pure ganker" in the way that you describe because you either need ships or minerals in order to have ganking ships. You can however be a "pure industrialist" if you factor ganks and such into your cost of doing business or you just hire mercenaries.


Categorical thinking is a nice weapon of mass destruction of information.

Two things: LP still a kind of currency and a measure of value. And you can blind youself as much as you want, people take that into account in estabilishing prices. I do that, everyone does that to earn ISK. There is a point where you cant rise prices of similar itens or products they reprocess into, because it gets easier to get the LP to buy them from NPCs.

Second, and more obscured it seems, you CAN sell or buy for any price you want, but this is not drive the market. If you have NPCs selling something that isnt player made, that can in turn be used to create trade itens, sold or reprocessed, and it has a fixed value and infinite supply, you are taking away the ability of players to define its supply and price as a whole in the player base. If you can still acquire those itens without any player making them or selling them in the first place, you have non player controlled market.

And you can have alts to get LP for you and run missions to get up to cruisers in missions. That still NPCs giving things that can be sold, reprocessed or used in otherwise non player driven supply satisfying a demand, which in turn makes a factor of indirect control of the market. Still players cant decide what is sold and for how much 100% of the times, rendering the market not 100% player driven.

True, it is a game with an enclosed economy. Yet steadily the items that are NPC provided become fewer and fewer. Increasingly players drive the economy, and already drive the vast majority of the items. Classifying it as a player driven economy is perfectly valid.

Also, do not confuse the source with actual market activity. Players do not create minerals, yet they do control the acquisition rate of those minerals and the prices they are bought and sold for. Ships purchased with loyalty points are the same thing. While players may not create the ships or bpc's they are built from, they do control how many are acquired and introduced to the economy. Basically they are a more sophisticated raw material. If players did not bother to go through the necessary steps to obtain them, they would not exist on the market.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

SpoonRECKLESS
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#94 - 2013-08-31 16:54:36 UTC
This was a well done post. I kinda like it, He gets to the point.

Blue

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#95 - 2013-08-31 16:54:47 UTC
This situation mirrors reality in many ways. The strongest weapon of a criminal is usually anonymity or the ability to relocate beyond the reach of retaliation.

If someone breaks into your home the vast majority of the time he will get away with it unless caught in the act. The police can record what was taken and how, but have no where near the manpower to try to track down every stereo, laptop, or car that is taken daily in your respective country. Often it is up to you to hit the pawn shops in the area to try and find your belongings, and even if you do it often does not lead to the arrest of the person responsible.

The best you can usually hope for is that insurance will partially reimburse you, just as it does in game. Unless that criminal makes a mistake you'll likely never see him or your property again.

Fortunately criminals do make the occasional mistake, just as they do in game. But in a game environment where incarceration isn't really a viable option (for obvious reasons) that limits the consequences to a temporary death by Concord or another player... giving them ample opportunity to learn from that mistake and try again, or develop ways that ensure the consequences are well worth accepting.

I'm not going to say that the game mechanics are perfect in this regard. While you do have options to protect yourself (through preparation or evasion) I still think we have a ways to go to allow a person to make the hunting of criminals (in game terms) a viable profession. The basics are there, but need further development.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#96 - 2013-08-31 17:38:17 UTC
Good posts by Tydeth Giltae and Neo Hal.

When I first looked at the OP's post I was trying to work out what he was trying to get at, Tydeth Giltae set him on the right direction in terms of what is in game, but then Neo Hal started talking about what I thought what the OP was really saying, the issue is meta gaming, people do not bother doing things because of the meta gaming risk and the game is less because of it, lets take the OP's point on going after a 0.0 alliance, you would gather people who had a reason to go after them and what would happen is that someone in that alliance will activate an account using alliance plex infiltrate and destroy from within, I really want to make the point clear, the game is less for the ease in which they can do it and the lack of tools to try to prevent it.

As for tears, there are a lot of people playing this game who are competent but have failed in RL, so they pour a lot of effort in the game to be good at something, to make them feel better, the ones who go on about harvesting tears on every post, go after that type of player as they know it has a RL impact, personally I find their denials rather tiring.

Lets take Gankers who go after mining barges, to me that is almost PvE, all they are doing is trying to kill something before the NPC's can intervene, the only PvP is whether the miner has fitted a tank, has good skills to be able to run the tank.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lady Areola Fappington
#97 - 2013-08-31 18:43:02 UTC
Here's the ultimate best defense against ganking.


Go gank for a couple weeks. Learn the mechanics of operating in highsec as an outlaw.

Once you've learned the mechanics, go back to mining, and realise how easy it is to dodge a gank.



Here's a freebie for you. Ganking with an outlaw character requires the use of a scout. The scout's job is to cuddle up next to your barge, and provide a warp-in. When you see someone getting too close, leave. This however, requires you be ATK and paying attention.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#98 - 2013-08-31 18:59:29 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Here's the ultimate best defense against ganking.


Go gank for a couple weeks. Learn the mechanics of operating in highsec as an outlaw.

Once you've learned the mechanics, go back to mining, and realise how easy it is to dodge a gank.



Here's a freebie for you. Ganking with an outlaw character requires the use of a scout. The scout's job is to cuddle up next to your barge, and provide a warp-in. When you see someone getting too close, leave. This however, requires you be ATK and paying attention.

Know your enemy ~ derived from Sun Tzu's Art of War

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Neo Hal
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-08-31 19:18:19 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Good posts by Tydeth Giltae and Neo Hal.

When I first looked at the OP's post I was trying to work out what he was trying to get at, Tydeth Giltae set him on the right direction in terms of what is in game, but then Neo Hal started talking about what I thought what the OP was really saying, the issue is meta gaming, people do not bother doing things because of the meta gaming risk and the game is less because of it, lets take the OP's point on going after a 0.0 alliance, you would gather people who had a reason to go after them and what would happen is that someone in that alliance will activate an account using alliance plex infiltrate and destroy from within, I really want to make the point clear, the game is less for the ease in which they can do it and the lack of tools to try to prevent it.

As for tears, there are a lot of people playing this game who are competent but have failed in RL, so they pour a lot of effort in the game to be good at something, to make them feel better, the ones who go on about harvesting tears on every post, go after that type of player as they know it has a RL impact, personally I find their denials rather tiring.

Lets take Gankers who go after mining barges, to me that is almost PvE, all they are doing is trying to kill something before the NPC's can intervene, the only PvP is whether the miner has fitted a tank, has good skills to be able to run the tank.


Good example and there are many examples of how meta gaming threatens the integrity of the game world. At the very least, it destroys any suspension of disbelief which is an important part of any good story.

But even worse, it makes it very difficult or even impossible for a player to know what is really going on. Creating uncertainty and confusion is a great tactic, but it should be done from within the game world...now that takes skill. Any idiot can multibox. I wish I could create 8 copies of myself in RL and make a lot more money! Of course, this notion is very silly and it makes Eve just as silly.

I generally don't interact with people in the game world because I don't know who they really are. I don't even know who they are in Eve. This avatar could be the same person that has 8 different schizophrenic alter egos which renders them all empty and without any true character. Ultimately, it makes the game much more shallow and pointless.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#100 - 2013-08-31 19:26:01 UTC
Mine aligned.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom