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Raven troubles (pve missioning)
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Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-08-30 21:18:44 UTC
Hey all!

I've recently switched from my drake into my raven, with the "new ship" feeling getting the better of me. I'm currently working on lvl 3 missions with lvl 4 fast approaching but i'm having some troubles with some of those more difficult missions.

I usually do missions in around 0.6/0.5 sec and stay in High Sec just for the safety of it but i'm having quite a bit of trouble keeping my shield up when facing guristas in tech 1 cruisers. They hit very hard and when in a group of about 10 or so, they get my shield down very quick and I need my shield booster along with cap recharger to stay alive.

My shield skills are as follows

Tactical Shield manipulation - level 4
Shield upgrades - level 4
Shield operation - level 4
Shield management - Level 4
Shield Emission Systems - level 2 (getting that up asap)

Seeing as the tank is what i'm having issues with, I wont post my missile stats but will do if it really is of some use.

My raven is fitted as this

6 x t2 cruise launchers with fury missiles

2 x t2 adaptive invuln field
1 x t2 em ward fiel
1 x t2 cap recharger
1 x t1 xl-shield booster
1x t1 shield boost amp

4x t2 ballistic control sys
1x t2 co-processor

3x t1 large warhead rigors

And flying a mix of hammerheads (t2) and/or goblins (t2)
And for those wondering, my cpu is capped so can't fit a target painter as of now.

That's it, hoping for some helpful tips!
Baggo Hammers
#2 - 2013-08-30 21:37:14 UTC
What are your missile skills like? In L4s the idea is to generally kill before you get hit, better known as gank. Also, you could stick a MJD on and stay 100km away and you will rarely get hit at all. They suit Ravens real well.


That being said, the co-processor kinda tells me you may not be ready for a BS.

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-08-30 21:47:57 UTC
Quote:
What are your missile skills like? In L4s the idea is to generally kill before you get hit, better known as gank. Also, you could stick a MJD on and stay 100km away and you will rarely get hit at all. They suit Ravens real well.


That being said, the co-processor kinda tells me you may not be ready for a BS.


My missile skills are as follows:

Cruise Missiles rank 5
Cruise Missile Specialization rank 1
Missile Bombardment rank 4
Rapid Launch rank 3
Target Navigation Prediction rank 3
Warhead upgrades rank 3

I didn't list them all but I think they are the only ones relevant to cruise missiles.

When fitting my raven I followed this fit;
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/66362-Raven-PVE-Fit-Odyssey.html

That's why I have a co-processor.
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-08-30 21:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: The Spod
The fit is very good, keep it as is. Just alter the basic usage by fitting a microjump drive and sensor range mod: Fit a large micro jump drive instead of the shield boost amplifier and use mission specific hardeners. Fit a sensor booster instead of the cap recharger OR a signal amplifier instead of the CPU mod, if you can.

This way you will use the microjump range as your main tank and stroll through L4's like a breeze. An added benefit is npc EWAR not hitting you at the range either.
oplus
Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
Birds of Prey.
#5 - 2013-08-30 21:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: oplus
You've got active hardeners fitted. What are your resistance skills like?

e.g. EM Shield Compensation, Thermic , Kinetic and Explosive.

Edit: funny things haven't changed much since i last ran missions basically same fit as 2009 lol.
Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-08-30 21:52:38 UTC
The Spod wrote:
The fit is very good, keep it as is. Just alter the basic usage by fitting a microjump drive and sensor range mod: Fit a large micro jump drive instead of the shield boost amplifier and use mission specific hardeners. Fit a sensor booster instead of the cap recharger OR a signal amplifier instead of the CPU mod, if you can.

This way you will use the microjump range as your main tank and stroll through L4's like a breeze. An added benefit is npc EWAR not hitting you at the range either.


Will try it when I get home from work - testing is all fine so it'll be fun to see what the difference is.

Quote:
You've got active hardeners fitted. What are your resistance skills like?

e.g. EM Shield Compensation, Thermic , Kinetic and Explosive.


With them on? All around 70-80% Can't remember exactly now but I do remember that my kinetic defence is at 79%
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-08-30 21:55:32 UTC
Sun Maid wrote:
Hey all!

I've recently switched from my drake into my raven, with the "new ship" feeling getting the better of me. I'm currently working on lvl 3 missions with lvl 4 fast approaching but i'm having some troubles with some of those more difficult missions.

I usually do missions in around 0.6/0.5 sec and stay in High Sec just for the safety of it but i'm having quite a bit of trouble keeping my shield up when facing guristas in tech 1 cruisers. They hit very hard and when in a group of about 10 or so, they get my shield down very quick and I need my shield booster along with cap recharger to stay alive.


Use a drake for level 3 missions. Heavy missiles don't get penalized against cruiser hulls, cruise missiles do. Use battleships for level 4 missions where you're flying against more battleships and battlecruisers.

Sun Maid wrote:
6 x t2 cruise launchers with fury missiles.

2 x t2 adaptive invuln field
1 x t2 em ward fiel
1 x t2 cap recharger
1 x t1 xl-shield booster
1x t1 shield boost amp


Fury missiles are even worse than regular cruise missiles against cruisers because of the signature difference. Use regular/faction/javelin missiles against cruisers.

don't try to omni tank mission ships, as very few missions require it. Use 3 specific shield hardeners (2 on the main damage type, 1 on the secondary). Instead of a cap recharger a cap booster would probably suit you better, so if you had to tank hard in some of the missions you could keep you XL booster running longer. I don't know if that will fit in your setup, but if you can try to fit it.

Sun Maid wrote:
4x t2 ballistic control sys
1x t2 co-processor

3x t1 large warhead rigors


It would be nice if you didn't have to use the co-processor, but if it makes it fit then do what you need too.

Rigors are the right choice, but once you feel comfortable in your mission ship try to get 2xtech II rigors and a tech II flare.

Sun Maid wrote:
That's it, hoping for some helpful tips!


Try to get into a navy scorpion instead of flying a raven for level 4's. The navy scorpion is more forgiving and tanks harder, and will serve you better as you get accustomed to level 4's. When your skills are solid and you're pushing for faster clear times is when you want to make the change from a navy scorp to a navy raven.

Until you can afford a navy scorpion I would suggest using a drake for level 3's.
oplus
Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
Birds of Prey.
#8 - 2013-08-30 21:56:50 UTC
Sun Maid wrote:
The Spod wrote:
The fit is very good, keep it as is. Just alter the basic usage by fitting a microjump drive and sensor range mod: Fit a large micro jump drive instead of the shield boost amplifier and use mission specific hardeners. Fit a sensor booster instead of the cap recharger OR a signal amplifier instead of the CPU mod, if you can.

This way you will use the microjump range as your main tank and stroll through L4's like a breeze. An added benefit is npc EWAR not hitting you at the range either.


Will try it when I get home from work - testing is all fine so it'll be fun to see what the difference is.

Quote:
You've got active hardeners fitted. What are your resistance skills like?

e.g. EM Shield Compensation, Thermic , Kinetic and Explosive.


With them on? All around 70-80% Can't remember exactly now but I do remember that my kinetic defence is at 79%


Yer you really want to make sure there above 80% in my experience. But t yer the micro jump drive is probably a good idea as cruise missiles are designed for long range.
Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-30 22:05:20 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:

Fury missiles are even worse than regular cruise missiles against cruisers because of the signature difference. Use regular/faction/javelin missiles against cruisers.

don't try to omni tank mission ships, as very few missions require it. Use 3 specific shield hardeners (2 on the main damage type, 1 on the secondary). Instead of a cap recharger a cap booster would probably suit you better, so if you had to tank hard in some of the missions you could keep you XL booster running longer. I don't know if that will fit in your setup, but if you can try to fit it.


Yes, I've read that everybody recommends lvl 3 missioning with a drake, which I've come to fit quite good imo but I wanted to try the raven but seems you may have a point. Didn't know about the "reduced" damage from cruise to lesser ships but I guess that is what the target painted and rigors might be for?

Alright so for the hardeners, passive or active? Since i usually meet up with guristas and they do kinectic damage so I guess just fitting 2 of those hardeners and 1 thermal for ex.

Ersahi Kir wrote:

Try to get into a navy scorpion instead of flying a raven for level 4's. The navy scorpion is more forgiving and tanks harder, and will serve you better as you get accustomed to level 4's. When your skills are solid and you're pushing for faster clear times is when you want to make the change from a navy scorp to a navy raven.

Until you can afford a navy scorpion I would suggest using a drake for level 3's.


Read quite a little bit about the scorpion but will read up a bit more about it. Thanks for the tips and as for money, it's not an issue but I don't want to throw it all around!
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-08-30 22:22:03 UTC
Sun Maid wrote:
Yes, I've read that everybody recommends lvl 3 missioning with a drake, which I've come to fit quite good imo but I wanted to try the raven but seems you may have a point. Didn't know about the "reduced" damage from cruise to lesser ships but I guess that is what the target painted and rigors might be for?


That's what the painters and rigors are for. My understanding of missile damage mechanics is that you compare the sig radius of the missile against the target signature radius, and you get reduced damage based on that ratio. My understanding is that it's actually a double whammy though because ships that are below that ratio also take less damage in the explosion velocity vs. ship velocity calculation. I'm not an expert on the actual equations though, just the general themes. Maybe someone else knows.

Sun Maid wrote:
Alright so for the hardeners, passive or active? Since i usually meet up with guristas and they do kinectic damage so I guess just fitting 2 of those hardeners and 1 thermal for ex.


Active if you can. Specific hardeners use less cap than invurn fields, so they should be easier to run. 2 kinetic 1 therms is exactly what you should be running against guristas. 2 em 1 therm sancha/blood raiders, 2 therm 1 kin serp, 2 exp 1 kin angles, 3 em drones.

Sun Maid wrote:
Read quite a little bit about the scorpion but will read up a bit more about it. Thanks for the tips and as for money, it's not an issue but I don't want to throw it all around!


The navy scorp is solid because it has a shield resist bonus instead of the navy raven application bonus, and it has more mids to help with tank (more hardeners) or capacitor. As you feel more confident in your ship you can switch out a hardener for a target painter. If you're using cruise missiles on your navy scorp then you have plenty of range anyway.
Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-08-30 22:52:04 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:

That's what the painters and rigors are for. My understanding of missile damage mechanics is that you compare the sig radius of the missile against the target signature radius, and you get reduced damage based on that ratio. My understanding is that it's actually a double whammy though because ships that are below that ratio also take less damage in the explosion velocity vs. ship velocity calculation. I'm not an expert on the actual equations though, just the general themes. Maybe someone else knows.


Sounds logical and reasonable enough. I'm buying it.

Ersahi Kir wrote:

Active if you can. Specific hardeners use less cap than invurn fields, so they should be easier to run. 2 kinetic 1 therms is exactly what you should be running against guristas. 2 em 1 therm sancha/blood raiders, 2 therm 1 kin serp, 2 exp 1 kin angles, 3 em drones.


Yep, sounds a bit of a hassle to switch it up quite a lot though but hey - I guess that's the price for missioning!

Ersahi Kir wrote:

The navy scorp is solid because it has a shield resist bonus instead of the navy raven application bonus, and it has more mids to help with tank (more hardeners) or capacitor. As you feel more confident in your ship you can switch out a hardener for a target painter. If you're using cruise missiles on your navy scorp then you have plenty of range anyway.


What I find wierd though, is the scorpions bonuses. Those have made me thing of it as an EWAR BS rather than a plain missile boat.
Kery Nysell
#12 - 2013-08-30 23:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kery Nysell
Sun Maid wrote:
What I find wierd though, is the scorpions bonuses. Those have made me thing of it as an EWAR BS rather than a plain missile boat.


The normal Scorpion is an EWAR boat, the *NAVY* Scorpion has the tanking bonuses Bear

Also, to use an image, with Fury Cruises against Cruisers, you're basically chucking buses at bikes ... using Precision Cruises and a Target Painter works better, but they still are quite a pain to deal with ... and for the love of Basement Cat, PLEASE raise your Cruise Missile Specialization above 1, to at least 3, preferably 4.

...
Sun Maid
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-08-30 23:08:01 UTC
Kery Nysell wrote:
Sun Maid wrote:
What I find wierd though, is the scorpions bonuses. Those have made me thing of it as an EWAR BS rather than a plain missile boat.


The normal Scorpion is an EWAR boat, the *NAVY* Scorpion has the tanking bonuses Bear

Also, to use an image, with Fury Cruises against Cruisers, you're basically chucking buses at bikes ... using Precision Cruises and a Target Painter works better, but they still are quite a pain to deal with ... and for the love of Basement Cat, PLEASE raise your Cruise Missile Specialization above 1, to at least 3, preferably 4.


Ah, haven't looked at the navy scorpion so that explains it!

And thanks for that child-like explanation :D quite funny tbh!

And yes, that will be raised, but I'm focusing on those shield skills first!
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-08-30 23:31:43 UTC
Yes, the navy scorpion is a brick tanked missile boat, the regular scorpion is an ECM boat. Please don't mistake the two when making purchases. :)
Bendak Starcrusher
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-08-31 02:34:00 UTC
Battle ships are bs... ok. skip them just get a carrier. use a teC 2-3 cruiser.
Tachypnea
Trinion Enterprises
#16 - 2013-08-31 09:18:19 UTC
Sun Maid wrote:
Quote:
What are your missile skills like? In L4s the idea is to generally kill before you get hit, better known as gank. Also, you could stick a MJD on and stay 100km away and you will rarely get hit at all. They suit Ravens real well.


That being said, the co-processor kinda tells me you may not be ready for a BS.


My missile skills are as follows:

Cruise Missiles rank 5
Cruise Missile Specialization rank 1
Missile Bombardment rank 4
Rapid Launch rank 3
Target Navigation Prediction rank 3
Warhead upgrades rank 3

I didn't list them all but I think they are the only ones relevant to cruise missiles.

When fitting my raven I followed this fit;
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/66362-Raven-PVE-Fit-Odyssey.html

That's why I have a co-processor.


I notice you did not mention Guided Missile Precision in your list of skills. Was this an oversight? The skill decreases the sig radius of missile explosions, allowing them to deal better damage against smaller targets. Getting it to 4 would help your cruise missiles apply damage vs frigates and cruisers. Aside from that, just keep working the other skills you listed up to 4, and eventually 5(especially the rank 2 and 3 ones). Other posters gave good advice too, especially regarding using the drake for level 3s and the raven for 4s.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#17 - 2013-09-01 04:05:27 UTC
Baggo Hammers wrote:
What are your missile skills like? In L4s the idea is to generally kill before you get hit, better known as gank. Also, you could stick a MJD on and stay 100km away and you will rarely get hit at all. They suit Ravens real well.


That being said, the co-processor kinda tells me you may not be ready for a BS.


I'd guess their support skills aren't great, but they are using t2 cruise. also MJD is for people with low skills and/or afk drone boats, otherwise you are usually better off not using a mjd.

and to t2 fit a raven with missile rigs you pretty much have to use a co proc. .

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#18 - 2013-09-01 04:28:10 UTC
I didn't see anything posted about:

Rat Specific Hardners.
Try 1 Invuln and 2 rat specifics.

If/when you jump up to level 4's.
INSURANCE !




Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#19 - 2013-09-01 07:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
I wouldn't suggest buying insurance, it would probably end up being a waste of money unless you mess up heavily and lose it. In my opinion, the best way to get your feet wet in L4s is to have a massive overtank, something like a XL-Shield Booster, 3 Mission Specific hardeners, 2 Shield Boost Amplifiers, Heavy Capacitor Booster and a Damage Control. On a Raven with perfect skills, that would give 833 tank against your weakest faction (Sansha) as long as your boosters last.

All this while still maintaining 2x Rigor rigs, 1x Flare rigs, and 3 Ballistic Controls which yield a respectable 840dps with perfect skills, not including drones (I get 750 with perfect missile support + Caldari Battleship IV). Even with entry level skills (Cruise Missiles IV, Missile Supports IV, Caldari Battleship IV, Shield Operation III, Shield Management III) you can still get 690tank and 560 dps which will get you through even the hardest missions although slowly.

Another option is of course using the MJD to out range your opponents however I don't like this as MJDing around can get annoying and some factions like Guristas are basically impossible to outrange and their Battleships can hit you out to 100km.

Once you get used to L4 missions and your skills improve you can drop some of the tank in favour of more gank. Here's the fit I'm talking about with minimum skills:

[Raven, L4 Massive Tank]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
5a Prototype Shield Support I
5a Prototype Shield Support I

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
[Empty High slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

If you can't fit something on that fit then you're not ready, it isn't too tight and should fit even with low skills. I started with something similar to this ages ago and never lost it, though some missions took painfully long and I had to warp out a couple times during my first few tries with it.
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#20 - 2013-09-02 16:18:53 UTC
Sun Maid wrote:

....
Shield Emission Systems - level 2 (getting that up asap)
....


You know that this skill does nothing for your local shield tank, right?