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Someone has a 'little' Napoleon complex..

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Author
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-08-30 03:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:

There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you.
You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).
Law enforcement != morals, killing another person is generally considered immoral, unless the law says otherwise, how is the law moral in that instance?
Quote:
If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.

Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.
In Eve you're an immortal, other peoples personal judgements are meaningless when it's impossible to be killed.


Well the law implies that you frown on others in said behavior which it simply does. I suppose I should clarify.

To those who don't want to be ganked, your actions are immoral. To those who are doing the ganking, you probaly have no morals to worry about.

But to deny that people get all mad when you gank them because you violated their sense of morality, denies the fact that there are real tears to be had.

[edit]

And other people's judgements are real. You can be kicked from a an alliance that you were making lots of money in or have your ship killed that was worth a great deal of isk. There are consequences other than just death.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#122 - 2013-08-30 03:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Andski wrote:

This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.

I'd have used the words "meaningless twaddle" myself. He's intent on trying to push 21st century norms on a fictional universe that's based in the 230th century and populated by people who've been disconnected from the rest of humanity for thousands of years.

It's akin to pushing our western norms onto an amazonian tribe that's still technologically in the stone or bronze age, or vice versa.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#123 - 2013-08-30 03:26:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Andski wrote:

This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.

I'd have used the words "meaningless twaddle" myself. He's intent on trying to push 21st century norms on a fictional universe that's based in the 230th century and populated by people who've been disconnected from the rest of humanity for thousands of years.

It's akin to pushing our western norms onto an amazonian tribe that's still technologically in the stone or bronze age, or vice versa.

Because it suits him.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2013-08-30 03:29:31 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Just because a game of poker is voluntary (usually) doesn't mean its moral to take your oponents money and leave him destitute. Its certainly a part of the game and legal (in Los Vegas), but it doesn't make you a "good" person for doing it.


Because your opponent betting his children's college fund in a poker game is the pinnacle of morality. Also, losing in EVE doesn't make you destitute.

Captain Tardbar wrote:
That is the problem. You see moral as being legal. And its not. Legal and moral are two different concepts.


When did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#125 - 2013-08-30 03:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Well the law implies that you frown on others in said behavior which it simply does. I suppose I should clarify.

To those who don't want to be ganked, your actions are immoral. To those who are doing the ganking, you probaly have no morals to worry about.

But to deny that people get all mad when you gank them because you violated their sense of morality, denies the fact that there are real tears to be had.
Nope they cry because they've developed a physical attachment to a virtual object in a virtual universe, it's like being a child and stealing another kids toys, the other kid doesn't cry because they've made a moral judgement, they cry because they no longer have what you took.

Quote:
[edit]

And other people's judgements are real. You can be kicked from a an alliance that you were making lots of money in or have your ship killed that was worth a great deal of isk. There are consequences other than just death.

Which in itself is meaningless, if I join an alliance with the intent of awoxing them sometime in the future, and they kick me for awoxing, it's of little real consequence. At worst I've lost the chance to awox them some more, at best I've refuelled my tear tank, and had a giggle doing so.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2013-08-30 03:31:51 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Andski wrote:
Holy **** you did unironically compare EVE to gambling

Paying for your EVE account and betting on a poker hand are two completely different concepts. You can win money from a good poker hand; playing EVE, on the other hand, only costs money and has no potential for a monetary return.


You win entertainment by risking money. Same difference.


So you're saying that everyone should win in this game because to have it any other way would be inherently immoral?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-08-30 03:32:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Andski wrote:

This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.

I'd have used the words "meaningless twaddle" myself. He's intent on trying to push 21st century norms on a fictional universe that's based in the 230th century and populated by people who've been disconnected from the rest of humanity for thousands of years.

It's akin to pushing our western norms onto an amazonian tribe that's still technologically in the stone or bronze age.



Well to be fair, I'm not arguing because I know I will convince you to change your mind or anything (hardly you people are set in your ways and have amazing rationalization defenses). I am just attempting to get people to come up with reaons to why they think they are right and spend the time and effort to put those into words.

And to test how long you will keep replying...

Although, not to diminish the argument I am saying. I still genuinely believe the things I say. I just don't care if you agree or not.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-08-30 03:34:37 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Andski wrote:
Holy **** you did unironically compare EVE to gambling

Paying for your EVE account and betting on a poker hand are two completely different concepts. You can win money from a good poker hand; playing EVE, on the other hand, only costs money and has no potential for a monetary return.


You win entertainment by risking money. Same difference.


So you're saying that everyone should win in this game because to have it any other way would be inherently immoral?


What part of "its ok to be immoral" do you not understand? Yes its immoral to ruin someone elses day.

But its ok to do that if you want.

Are you ashamed of your virtual sin?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2013-08-30 03:39:10 UTC
By your standard, it is immoral for a professor to fail a student if the student risks losing his scholarship as a result of failing that course. That is nonsense.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#130 - 2013-08-30 03:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well to be fair, I'm not arguing because I know I will convince you to change your mind or anything (hardly you people are set in your ways and have amazing rationalization defenses). I am just attempting to get people to come up with reaons to why they think they are right and spend the time and effort to put those into words.

And to test how long you will keep replying...

Although, not to diminish the argument I am saying. I still genuinely believe the things I say. I just don't care if you agree or not.

Well here's the thing, I generally play this game according to my own moral code, I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. What I don't do is try to force my own personal moral code on others, I accept that others may not share my personal moral code, or are amoral when it comes to pixels, and tbh, fair play to them. In this game, morals are a weakness to be exploited.

So I pose this question to Captain Tardbar,

Is it moral to push a personal moral code onto those that may not share it? Because, as our own history has shown us, that generally leads to "bad things™" happening.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2013-08-30 03:40:23 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Yes its immoral to ruin someone elses day.


Posts this bad are definitely immoral. Please, for the sake of humanity, stop.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-08-30 03:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live.


That sounds like a moral code to me. I'm not saying that the in game morality is equivalent to real life morality. I am saying there are good and evil choices to be made in EVE.

If you can't accept that, then you are blind to the amazing flavor EVE has for its users.

The amazing thing about EVE is that you can decide to be good and evil. If you were just playing a game where you forced to be good or bad depending on the side you chose like WoW or Star Wars, it would be bland and boring.

Why can't you people accept that virtual sin is not something to be ashamed of, but rather to be embraced.

If there wasn't evil in EVE then all the good things that people do would be just as pointless.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-08-30 03:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Rhes wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Yes its immoral to ruin someone elses day.


Posts this bad are definitely immoral. Please, for the sake of humanity, stop.


Like my sig... If it makes you post, then its doing its job.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#134 - 2013-08-30 03:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live.


That sounds like a moral code to me. I'm not saying that the in game morality is equivalent to real life morality. I am saying there is good and evil choices to be made in EVE.

If you can't accept that, then you are blind to the amazing flavor EVE has for its users.

The amazing thing about EVE is that you can decide to be good and evil. If you were just playing a game where you forced to be good or bad depending on the side you chose like WoW or Star Wars, it would be bland and boring.

Why can't you people accept that virtual sin is not something to be ashamed of, but rather to be embraced.

If there wasn't evil in EVE then all the good things that people do would be just as pointless.
Way to butcher and nitpick at a quote.
I wrote:
Well here's the thing, I generally play this game according to my own moral code, I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. What I don't do is try to force my own personal moral code on others, I accept that others may not share my personal moral code...
Yes I have a moral code, and generally I adhere to it. However, I don't expect others to and I don't judge them for not following it.

The key word is PERSONAL, it only applies to me, it doesn't apply to others and nor should it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#135 - 2013-08-30 03:59:00 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Yes its immoral to ruin someone elses day.

Posts this bad are definitely immoral. Please, for the sake of humanity, stop.

Posts so terrible they're sinful.

2 weeks RO

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-08-30 03:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live.


That sounds like a moral code to me. I'm not saying that the in game morality is equivalent to real life morality. I am saying there is good and evil choices to be made in EVE.

If you can't accept that, then you are blind to the amazing flavor EVE has for its users.

The amazing thing about EVE is that you can decide to be good and evil. If you were just playing a game where you forced to be good or bad depending on the side you chose like WoW or Star Wars, it would be bland and boring.

Why can't you people accept that virtual sin is not something to be ashamed of, but rather to be embraced.

If there wasn't evil in EVE then all the good things that people do would be just as pointless.


Way to butcher and nitpick a quote, what I actually said was "Well here's the thing, I generally play this game according to my own moral code, I don't scam, I rarely gank, I don't steal loot (often) and generally I live and let live. What I don't do is try to force my own personal moral code on others, I accept that others may not share my personal moral code..."

Yes I have a moral code, and generally I adhere to it. However, I don't expect others to and I don't judge them for not following it.

The key word is PERSONAL, it only applies to me, it doesn't apply to others and nor should it.


Let's take a subset of players... Say miners. I would say the majority of miners would believe that you are playing a "good" player rather than "evil".

As a collective these miners have belief in morality like a subset of real life society would have. Some might have different views like that speeding in a car is ok and whatnot. Others not so much.

I know you don't judge, but others do and in this judgement comes good and evil.

If you commit an evil action I judge you because thats what humans do.

Personally, I don't think the police should come to your house and arrest you, but I most likley wouldn't trust you in EVE.

Does that make sense? Morality comes from not only individual judgment by subsets of groups as a whole.

What you may think to be moral, others may not agree.

Sure I am projecting, but that is what humans do.

And I'm confused to why people won't embrace being evil.

I've ganked ships and I would say my alignment in EVE is evil. Why can't people embrace this without being ashamed of their actions?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#137 - 2013-08-30 03:59:34 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Is it moral to push a personal moral code onto those that may not share it? Because, as our own history has shown us, that generally leads to "bad things™" happening.

Push our moral code all over the pubbies.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-08-30 04:00:12 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
What you're suggesting is that we should carry our real world morals into a virtual world. Real world morals are the result of societal norms which is all fine and dandy. However, they do get thrown out of the window when it suits our purposes, for example wars and oppression.

The societal norms in Eve are different from that of the real world in that morals are not the norm. You're free to bring your real world morals into this world, just as others are free to ignore them because the norm here is to "do unto others before they do unto you".

Society and its norms change rapidly, 200 years ago slavery was acceptable, today it is not, 500 years ago committing genocide on the natives of far off lands, because we wanted their stuff, was considered a divine right, today that is generally considered completely unacceptable, it still happens to a certain extent, but is washed over by politicians and spin doctors.

Eve is set 21,000 years in the future, the 4 factions have been cut off from humanity for millennia, who is to say that the behaviour of a human population cut off from mainstream humanity for that amount of time would conform to what we consider normal in the real world?

In nature and in our own history, the strong have always preyed upon the weak, the strong have always become powerful at the expense of the weak, Eve is actually a purer reflection of the natural order of things than the norms real world society has adopted and expects us to live by.


No, you are suggesting that we leave our morality (which is an inseparable part of who we are) at the login screen. And that would be fine and possible, if the actions that we took in-game had no external effect. But for whatever reason, the actions in-game obviously do have external effects. That is the reason we play the game at all.

Your suggestion is analagous to dressing up in a gorilla suit and beating someone to death, then taking off the suit and expecting not to be judged for your actions because, after all, you were a gorilla. We are suggesting that, no, you're a murderer.

It's possible to just play the game and still hurt someone's feelings, just like it's possible to just play ice hockey and still break someone's leg, but if you asked most ice hockey players, I'd bet most of them would tell you they'd rather lose the game than break their opponent's leg. They would put their moral integrity above winning the game. And, even rarer than someone willing to break another person's leg to win would be someone who was willing to LOSE so long as they were able to break someone elses' leg. Similarly, when you pay effort, time, money, ISK, etc. in EVE in the hope of just ruining someone's game, that is a moral decision.

To justify our behavior with "It's just a game." is no more noble or defensible than "She deserved it." or "Blacks/Jews/women/etc. aren't our equals." or "It was a war." or even "I was drunk.". What happens in Vegas DOES NOT actually stay in Vegas.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#139 - 2013-08-30 04:00:22 UTC
I forgot to say, this thread has not made any of the eve online sinners repent.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#140 - 2013-08-30 04:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Let's take a subset of players... Say miners. I would say the majority of miners would believe that you are playing a "good" player rather than "evil".

As a collective these miners have belief in morality like a subset of real life society would have. Some might have different views like that speeding in a car is ok and whatnot. Others not so much.

I know you don't judge, but others do and in this judgement comes good and evil.

If you commit an evil action I judge you because thats what humans do.

Personally, I don't think the police should come to your house and arrest you, but I most likley wouldn't trust you in EVE.

Does that make sense? Morality comes from not only individual judgment by subsets of groups as a whole.

What you may think to be moral, others may not agree.

Sure I am projecting, but that is what humans do.

And I'm confused to why people won't embrace being evil.

I've ganked ships and I would say my alignment in EVE is evil. Why can't people embrace this without being ashamed of their actions?


I don't actually care what others think of my own personal moral code, their thoughts on it are meaningless, that's why I say it's a personal code. Believe me miners wouldn't consider me good in any way, I may not gank them personally, not on this character anyway, but I'm quite happy to make money hand over fist from their misery, I'm a shareholder in the New Order, I supply BPCs, rigs, modules and ships to them, as well as sell ships, modules etc to both miners and gankers.

While I may have a moral code, money does not, in the real world I would probably be considered a war profiteer.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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