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About that Harmonic Orchestra recording...

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Author
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#81 - 2013-08-21 23:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Bah! Give it up Jonah. It's just feeding him at this point.

He's the kind who would argue that "2001" is a terrible science fiction film because it doesn't have any lazerz pew-pew.


[citation needed]

2001 was an awesome movie. I even have it on laser disk if you want to get into that discussion.

Thou dost assume to much about Doc methinks.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#82 - 2013-08-21 23:17:47 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:


2001 was an awesome movie. I even have it on laser disk if you want to get into that discussion.

Thou dost assume to much about Doc methinks.



Your otherwise stubborn determination to be "absolutely correct and king and guardian of all Correct Knowledge" is not only unbecoming and immature, it's the same problem that has been affecting the American political system for the past 5 years.

Without compromise, nobody gets anywhere.

It's the 21st Century mental plague.

Too bad nobody has really discussed the beautiful music involved in Kirjava's OP Topic.

We should all be banned for off topic posting tbh.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#83 - 2013-08-21 23:27:17 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:


2001 was an awesome movie. I even have it on laser disk if you want to get into that discussion.

Thou dost assume to much about Doc methinks.



Your otherwise stubborn determination to be "absolutely correct and king and guardian of all Correct Knowledge" is not only unbecoming and immature, it's the same problem that has been affecting the American political system for the past 5 years.


So, now this is a politics thread?



There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#84 - 2013-08-21 23:34:06 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:


So, now this is a politics thread?






Not anymore than it's a Stanley Kubrick Thread.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#85 - 2013-08-21 23:53:18 UTC
Am I the only person surprised this isn't in OOPE given its turned into a debate on audio engineering, yet everything else gets sent there without much reason?

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#86 - 2013-08-22 00:04:15 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Am I the only person surprised this isn't in OOPE given its turned into a debate on audio engineering, yet everything else gets sent there without much reason?

I wish the mods were a little more selective about what they send there, some of the threads they've forwarded to OOPE are so bad they would make 4chan cringe.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#87 - 2013-08-22 00:10:38 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
Am I the only person surprised this isn't in OOPE given its turned into a debate on audio engineering, yet everything else gets sent there without much reason?



Lol IKNOWRITE ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-08-24 14:54:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Once again, it's Science vs. Religion.

Factual proof that not only shows most people cannot tell the difference, but also that they are usually horrendously wrong, well outside of any statistical average that one would expect from a reasoned comparison.

vs.

The belief (confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof -dictionary.com) that "well, I can hear the difference".



I guess my 7 years of musical training tricks me into what I'm hearing.

Oh brother. Roll


No, your brain tricks you. My 20 years of musical training has nothing to do with it, I assure you.

But hey why would you argue facts when there are beliefs to be bandied about?


This has nothing to do with the quality of the audio equipment (that is a variable to be cancelled out in the experiment).

I get the distinct feeling that none of you people arguing you can tell the difference have actually read the study posted on page 2 of this thread.

I strongly suggest you do

A/D -> D/A compression at ~13 bits (abysmally low for today's standards)

Here is somebody who made claims that he could tell the difference, proposed a proper experiment, conducted it, and accepted that he was wrong at the end of it. After all, that's what you do when your outlandish claims are proven false. Admit you were wrong and move onward.

p.s. this experiment was conducted 29 years ago.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#89 - 2013-08-24 16:41:29 UTC
I'd let it go, Eram. Literally hundreds of studies have been done which show the same thing, but the audiophile will still claim he is special and can hear the difference.

Worse, he/she will claim the difference is "stark", "Night and day", "palpable", "definitely there", "obvious", or will generally act smug, superior, or just do the whole 'fake pity' thing where they feel 'sorry' that you can't hear what they're able to hear the moment they put on a vinyl.

Of course, the second you start testing whether they can hear these "night and day" differences, they suddenly can't. It's a guess. A coin flip. They have no idea which is which.
Oh, they will claim right here they can, not understanding the need for the type of double-blind test that proves they can't, and why they're only hearing the difference because they're telling themselves they can hear it.

The audiophile will always believe that every single fact and piece of evidence to the contrary of what they believe is wrong for some reason, despite the very same scientific methods they claim are so faulty being the basis of such things as modern medicine and virtually our entire understanding of how the universe works, including (ironically) the technology they listen to the music on.

It's like me claiming my T-shirt is better than yours because it lets me fly, but I can't show you because when someone watches it doesn't work. Is it childish? No, it's bizarre, but the audiophile delusion isn't the only one our brains let us believe against all available evidence. We're very illogical creatures when we get down to it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#90 - 2013-08-24 16:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
All I know is, I have turntable and cd player.

I can play my 30th Anniversary vinyl press of Pink Floyd DSoM, and then play the cd.

There is a vast difference. Whether one is 'better' than the other, is a subtle matter of preference.

Both are excellent. The CD sound is definitely crisper and clearer.

I prefer the vinyl sound. The 'crispness' of the CD just feels wrong to me. Repeat: to me.

That's about all anyone can really say.


edit: Just played my ancient 12" of New Order's "Temptation" then played the CD version.

The baselines on the CD are again overly tinny. The 12" vinyl seems to throb right down to one's bones.

Whether one is superior, is just a matter of personal taste.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#91 - 2013-08-24 17:00:37 UTC
These are different masters, though. The problem a lot of people have experienced originated when people started putting albums onto vinyl in the 80s to cash in on the new format - it wasn't done very well. It's got nothing to do with the format and everything to do with how it was made.
I own several vinyl albums simply because they're better masters than the CD.

The problem comes when you decide that vinyl is a better format because of this, which is a lot like having a bad test drive in a particular type of car because the showroom had the wrong fuel in the tank, and then claiming all Dodge's run bad.

:iiaca:

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#92 - 2013-08-24 17:19:54 UTC
I'm more likely to listen to digital formats anyway if just for the convenience.

I'm not the type of audiophile who needs or wants special equipment and all that.

It's annoying flipping vinyl every 20 minutes.

this whole thread has honestly been useless and overly pedantic.

So much for the wonderful music the thread was supposed to be about.

But people would rather wallow in flowing anger and "I am so correct I'm the Architect of the Matrix" about this.

To paraphrase Egon in Ghostbusters: "Discourse is Dead".

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-08-24 18:03:49 UTC
"logical discourse is dead" -ftfy

Not my fault.

Believe what you will, I choose to believe what can be proven.

For example, I believe that you believe you can 'tell the difference', as is proven by your posting.

Ever try to have logical discourse with a religious fanatic? Same result.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#94 - 2013-08-24 18:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Eram Fidard wrote:
"logical discourse is dead" -ftfy

Not my fault.

Believe what you will, I choose to believe what can be proven.

For example, I believe that you believe you can 'tell the difference', as is proven by your posting.

Ever try to have logical discourse with a religious fanatic? Same result.



Settle down. My post was not aimed at you in any way.

I choose to believe what can be proven as well, and am quite the Atheist.

But trying to prove our brain's auditory processing, especially from the standpoint of which musical format is better, which depends on a crap-load of physical factors concerning the ear itself, that differs across the span of humanity, is trying to settle the wrong question.

And it's impossible.

Some people declare Picasso's "Guernica" brilliant. Others think it's a painted sheet of junk.

These things can only be determined by an individual's preference, not by the scientific method.

Religion is a completely different paradigm and an inadequate comparison for the argument. There is not even anything physically there at all to start with.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Edgy Bitwise
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-08-25 03:04:51 UTC
brinelan wrote:
Do records really sound better? I hear that every now and then but I haven't used a record player since I had a fisher price one as a kid and 5 year olds generally don't care about sound quality.


Tons better. Combine vinyl with a wonderful sound stage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization) and you're in for a treat. Go listen to Dark Side of the Moon on a pair of Klipsch heresy iii's. Headphones won't cut it. Trust me.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#96 - 2013-08-25 13:37:10 UTC
I can not truly discuss the actual preference presented hear (yak yak yaka) in this discussion, but I will ask a question to those that are posting up the research.

Was, any of the research done, utilizing top Listeners, on standard-sub standard equipment, in standard living conditions and non scientifically controlled settings?


If that is a negative.

Was, in any of the introduction or discussion sections of the research articles presented, it mentioned that the average listener of music does not listen to either, analog or digital, through top of the line equipment? If yes, was it discussed that this could actually present more markers that would signal which version of a song was being played?
Hyper Traxx
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-08-27 02:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hyper Traxx
Whitehound wrote:

The way an A/D converter works requires it to hold the signal for a certain time until it has been digitized. There are many implementations for A/D converters, but a popular one is a successive approximation of the input signal by using a comparator and to compare the input to the output of a D/A converter until all bits have been matched. In order to achieve this is the input signal stored in a capacitor. The method is nothing short of brutal to anyone familiar with analogue electronics. Even capacitors have a characteristic.


As one who has not only studied how A/D conversion takes place, but instructed on the various A/D conversion processes, I couldn't help but notice you are explaining the A/D conversion process in the most convoluted manner possible. Sure you chose a Successive Approximation (SAL) converter for your example, and SAL conversion takes place fairly quickly, which would make it seem to be the best - you then completely screw up how it actually works. The input voltage is *sampled* by an audio-grade A/D converter, at a precise interval (i.e. 44.1 kHz). The 'sampling' functions much more like a latch, in that the sampling is of the voltage present at the input at that instant - *far* shorter than the 22.68us you claim the audio is 'held' at. Your inference that this somehow changes the input is flat out false. The (audio) analog input to the SAL first enters an Operation Amplifier - a device specifically designed to *not* alter the signal - especially in the case of an audio-grade component. Any capacitance used to store the charge during conversion will be on the other side of that op-amp and will have a negligible impact on the analog source. The capacitance does nothing 'brutal' to the source at all, nor does it change in any measurable bit during the successive approximation process - if it did, the SAL would fail at its task and randomly output samples that were grossly miscalculated (which would be *quite* audible as a 'tick' when playing back the conversion).

...now your argument holds some water if you look at what ends up stored, which is a waveform shifting in 22.68us 'steps'. Yup, you're absolutely correct there - so long as all you're doing is zooming way in on a digital recording. The catch is that any decent D/A conversion process involves super-sampling, which effectively removes the jagged steps from the raw digital source as it is being converted back into analog form. This is *in addition to* the fact that the audio signal has been oversampled in the first place (sample rate is >2x the highest frequency to be sampled). If you could freeze frame an (analog) oscilloscope output taken straight from the recording microphone, and compare that to a digital signal that had been sampled from the same source, you would be hard pressed to identify any difference. If you zoomed in enough to see the jaggies, that is not representative of what actually comes out of the D/A conversion. Passing the same signal, post-A/D/A conversion, back through the same analog scope would reveal a virtually identical image, regardless of how closely you decide to look at it. Further, since the sample rate was >2k oversampled in the first place, any smoothing effect resulting from the supersampling process will be inaudible as they are occurring at higher than the specified (audible) range.

Some people can in fact perceive audio >22kHz (sampled at 44.1 kHz), but moving to either 48 or 96 kHz formats evens out the field rather quickly.

You've cited your comparisons of the 'same' recordings on both vinyl and cd formats. I assure you they are most likely *not* the 'same'. The vinyl master used for pressing may be the very same used for sampling the digital master, but then it was more than likely altered, even slightly, by the audio engineers prior to creating the CD master. The most common culprit is compression (of dynamic range, not MP3). Early classical CD recordings had to be turned up fairly high on volume in order for the quiet parts to be heard in non-ideal environments. Studios very quickly caved to negative feedback and dialed in at least some dynamic range compression. If you've ever toyed with it yourself, you'll see just how quickly that type of compression kills off the 'warmth' of a source. Further, some studios make the mistake of converting to digital at a higher sample rate (i.e. 96 or 192 kHz), and then using sample-rate conversion to drop that down to 44.1 kHz. Sampling at 96 kHz is great so long as you also listen to it at that rate. Down-converting to 44.1 (an uneven increment of 96) introduces artifacts that some can perceive.

Your comparisons to photography are null and void. We are nowhere near resolution 'mastery' of digital imagery, but for audio, the technology has been more than enough to appropriately oversample for decades. It will still be a while before we can equivalently 'oversample' a photographed scene with a simple digital camera.
Sgt Doakes XD
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-08-28 12:12:06 UTC
Nah, I think digital is probably overall better.
Just ask for a WAV or even 320kbps MP3.
CCP Falcon
#99 - 2013-08-28 16:10:56 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
Am I the only person surprised this isn't in OOPE given its turned into a debate on audio engineering, yet everything else gets sent there without much reason?



Lol IKNOWRITE ?


Good point.

Movings...

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#100 - 2013-08-28 16:14:16 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
Am I the only person surprised this isn't in OOPE given its turned into a debate on audio engineering, yet everything else gets sent there without much reason?



Lol IKNOWRITE ?


Good point.

Movings...

Kirjava points are best points Cool

Come to LAGL. we got beer dude! Big smile

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